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Author Topic:   Occupy Wall Street, London and Evereywhere Else
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 151 of 208 (643715)
12-10-2011 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Buzsaw
12-10-2011 9:49 PM


Re: Where The Rubber Meets The Road
So far all you've conveyed to me that they worked at or did right was their schooling. What else have they done right besides study for school?
What else could they do right? Going to school is what school-age children do. So none of them has completed astronaut training or become President of Nicaragua. What's your point?
Nearly all of the ones that I know of who didn't make it in life in the capitalist land of the free are the lazy, the feeders at the public trough, the addicts, the drunkards, the street people like so many in the Occupy W.S. loud mouth types, the ones who spend recklessly, the ones who borrow beyond their means, the thieves, etc, etc.
Clearly we move in very different circles.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2011 9:49 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 152 of 208 (643744)
12-11-2011 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Shield
12-10-2011 7:32 PM


Re: really?
and its the personal attacks and name calling, and emotional outburst from pussy as bitches like your self that make liberals look like the libtards they are.
i'll see you on the battlefield motherfucker.
its should be totally obvious that I was being sarcastic you piece shit.
keep talking shit. I'll walk over there pull up your skirt and rub your clitoris, i know what bitches like you need.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Shield, posted 12-10-2011 7:32 PM Shield has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Shield, posted 12-11-2011 3:18 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 2862 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 153 of 208 (643776)
12-11-2011 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Artemis Entreri
12-11-2011 8:39 AM


Re: really?
Thanks for making my point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-11-2011 8:39 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-12-2011 10:18 AM Shield has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(4)
Message 154 of 208 (643779)
12-11-2011 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Buzsaw
12-10-2011 8:04 PM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
Crashfrog, all I ever had was a high school diploma.
So somebody gave you a chance, took a risk on you (since you hadn't demonstrated any kind of proficiency or expertise in anything) and you proved that they were right to do so. Good on you!
Is it really so objectionable that the OWS crowd want the same thing? The only thing they're asking for is the opportunity to do work for pay. Have they earned that? Well, you hadn't. They've actually worked quite a bit harder in preparation for their first job than you ever did. And you're here to tell them they don't deserve their shot?
Fuck you.
All we get is Social Security which I've paid into for over 50 years.
Buz, do you understand how Social Security works? It never seems like it. It's not a savings account. It's not your money. Your 50 years of Social Security payments didn't go into an account for you to draw on, they were paid out in benefits to the people of your parents' generation who were retired while you were working.
And the sum you paid in for those 50 years is nothing even close to what you'll receive in total - you'll get perhaps two orders of magnitude more in benefits than you paid in payroll taxes. The money you're getting from Social Security comes out of my pocket, and thanks to people like you, Social Security is a benefit that I may not enjoy. Thanks to your generation's endless thirst for suckling at the government teat, your enormous cost of living increases and medical premiums are liable to exhaust the capacity of the Federal government to offer me the same benefits that I'm paying for on your behalf.
Social Security isn't a savings account, Buz. You receive those benefits because its part of a social contract - workers pay in to support the retired, then they retire and are supported by a new generation of workers. But watching the people of your generation work as hard as they can to climb the ladder and then pull it up after you disgusts me.
I never had a retirement plan and don't have a lot of cash.
Well, right. You failed to plan for your future so now you live off my my taxes. It's funny but you seem to think that proves you're not a government parasite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Buzsaw, posted 12-10-2011 8:04 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-11-2011 8:46 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 155 of 208 (643794)
12-11-2011 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by crashfrog
12-11-2011 4:22 PM


Young and Educated versus Old and Entitled
I maintain that one of the current problems with the capitalist system is that it has run out of third world people to exploit and is in fact exploiting and feeding off of its own. Corporations are in a sense a type of one world government. The top level employees come from different countries and unite to manage a corporation that utilizes global labor with no thought whatsoever to the national origin. The U.S. Middle class is being hollowed out. It is a victim of global competition.
In Buzsaws time, the United States was still on top as a nation, and anyone who worked hard could get ahead. Unions were also strong in that era. Now, it seems from our conversation that the old are being resented by the young and the young misunderstood by the old. As an older(52) union worker, I resent the fact that younger people are trying to do my job and willingly accepting less in order to do so. Buz may also feel that these educated OWS young people need to do as he and his sons did. What is not realized, however, is that the rules have changed as has the environment.
I'm not sure what the exact solution is...jar suggests a consensus on a 50 year plan to fix the broken system, which involves working harder (for less) while everything is being paid off.
That is too depressing to consider. Nobody wants to be exploited. Not we older folks who feel we have paid into the system and worked hard...nor you younger folks who feel that with a college education you have earned a shot at success.One solution is to unionize the competition. Another solution is to have protectionism so that global labor wont out-compete the US middle class. These are not gonna work, however. I hate to sound negative, but this all depresses me.
crashfrog,to Buzsaw writes:
You failed to plan for your future so now you live off my my taxes.
Higher taxes are a foregone necessity. I too will have to endure higher taxes. I am not sure what the solution is for any of this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2011 4:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2011 8:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 156 of 208 (643795)
12-11-2011 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
12-11-2011 8:46 PM


Re: Young and Educated versus Old and Entitled
I just want to be clear - I'm not opposed to taxes, even higher ones, to support a system so that people don't make it to the age of 65 and then stop being able to work without a source of income to keep themselves fed and sheltered. I'm not old enough to remember the times when seniors ate cat food because its all they could afford, but I know that happened and I'm happy to kick in so people don't have to go through that, even parasites like Buz who work as hard as they can to make sure I don't get the same deal.
I don't understand what happened to the Baby Boomers that caused them to turn on their own kids and grandkids, but its pandemic at this point. Generational warfare has already begun; it was declared when we started diverting funding for higher education and public schools to preserve Social Security and pensions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 12-11-2011 8:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Coyote, posted 12-11-2011 9:34 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 173 by Omnivorous, posted 12-12-2011 6:55 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 157 of 208 (643796)
12-11-2011 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Omnivorous
12-10-2011 10:01 PM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
Omnivorous writes:
Buzsaw writes:
Never in my life have we taken food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, prescription drugs, etc. We would qualify for food stamps, but take none because we don't need them. We want nothing at the expense of others.
Why do you distinguish between Social Security and food stamps, Medicare and Medicaid?
We all pay taxes for all of those. You could not receive Social Security without the contributions of others.
The difference is that the Social Security contributions I've paid in were a whole lot more than I would have had to pay into a private retirement plan and receive the same return.
I don't have to be sick to receive Social Security. On the other hand if I take care of my body as I do, there is no need to use Medicare, etc. Social security was suppose to be a retirement plan for all.
The Social Security $$ I paid into the system decades ago would have bought 25 to 35 cent a gallon for gas. For Social Security $$ I'm getting back I have to pay $3 to $4 for a gallon of gas. So you young-uns hadn't ought to complain. You're paying $3 to $4 gas money in. If you were to retire on $3 to $4 gas money you'd get a whole lot better deal than us old folks are getting.
Having said the above, we trust God and pray about everything. God reveals himself in unusual ways, so as to show us he exists and did it.
So those who have needed food stamps, Medicare or Medicaid failed God?
No. Many food tamp recipients take all they can get regardless of whether the actually need it or not.
Many of the sickly folks put the best oil in their cars and junk in their bodies. Most of sickness is due to either ignorance or one's own carelessness as to what they eat. God led me to someone when I was in the Air Force who got me apprised on the holistic diet and healing regime. It takes a lot of discipline and knowledge if one wants to be healthy The science and knowledge on it had increased many fold since when I first got into it. It's all over the internet for anyone willing to study up and practice being healthy.
It sounds to me that you have had the good fortune to require no major surgeries or treatments for potentially fatal illnesses, or assistance from others, and you think it's due to your virtue.
Maybe you need to re-read the Book of Job--you sound like one of his neighbors.
It's not fortune. I pray daily for God to provide my needs, keep me well and strong and protect me from harm and loss. Then I pray for the same for all on my prayer list, especially my beloved family and Christian brothers and sisters who know God. This has been often how God reveals himself to be real in a personal way. This, coupled with all of the other corroborating evidence of the Biblical record is why I'm doggedly stick with Christianity.
I've read the book of Job numerous times. Those OT accounts of the patriarchs etc never bore me. They are so much more inspiring than anything in either the Johnny come lately Koran and Book Of Mormon. Their immensely more inspiring than any other religious book. Thus The Bible being the global best seller for so long.
ABE: Perhaps some of the above will address the concerns Crashfrog and Phat have aired above.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Omnivorous, posted 12-10-2011 10:01 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2011 11:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 172 by Omnivorous, posted 12-12-2011 6:23 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 158 of 208 (643797)
12-11-2011 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by crashfrog
12-11-2011 8:57 PM


Re: Young and Educated versus Old and Entitled
I don't understand what happened to the Baby Boomers that caused them to turn on their own kids and grandkids, but its pandemic at this point. Generational warfare has already begun; it was declared when we started diverting funding for higher education and public schools to preserve Social Security and pensions.
Certain things were promised to various groups of people; medicare, social security, pensions, etc. In many cases those people paid part of the costs for many years. They (rightly) expect those promises to be kept!
But for a variety of reasons the system broke. One major fault is politicians who exchange promises of benefits for votes--promises made far beyond anyone's ability to deliver. Another is public employee unions who exchange votes and campaign funds for promises of future benefits, then negotiate those benefits with the same politicians they supported. Another is that the funds collected were paid out to a higher degree than they were invested--in non-government circles this is called a ponzi scheme. When politicians kept promising benefits to those who won't work, and made it more attractive to collect benefits than to work, they subsidized the exact opposite of what we need--more good workers who earn a decent living and pay taxes to support those who legitimately can't work!
Throughout this there was little thought as to how these promises could be paid for. The can was simply kicked down the road through increasing debt. Well, that debt is coming due.
At this point I see no good solutions, but I'm certainly not going to rely on politicians' promises for my retirement. Nor will I believe any of their promises in the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2011 8:57 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2011 11:34 PM Coyote has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 159 of 208 (643799)
12-11-2011 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Buzsaw
12-11-2011 9:18 PM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
The difference is that the Social Security contributions I've paid in were a whole lot more than I would have had to pay into a private retirement plan and receive the same return.
If you had contributed to a private plan instead of receiving a defined benefit, you probably would have exhausted your fund in the first five years.
But, Buz, the point is - you didn't contribute to a defined plan. Nobody stopped you! You could have taken just as much of your paycheck as you wanted to, as you thought was prudent, and placed it in a savings account.
But you didn't. And now, rather than make you pay the price for your lack of vision and foresight, all the current workers get together and pay a portion of their income to keep you in herbs and guacamole dip. And rather than exhibit any kind of gratitude to the social compact that stepped in and saved your ass after you dropped the ball all those years ago, you're trying to pull the ladder up after you.
Disgusting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Buzsaw, posted 12-11-2011 9:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 160 of 208 (643800)
12-11-2011 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Coyote
12-11-2011 9:34 PM


Re: Young and Educated versus Old and Entitled
They (rightly) expect those promises to be kept!
I agree. These things are part of a social compact that exists so that healthy people don't spend their lives contributing to the general prosperity, only to be dumped by the wayside when their failing health left them unable to contribute any further. In fact, we'd let them retire before that happened so that people could have a few years or decades of leisure.
That compact needs to be preserved. But the Baby Boomers weren't the only ones who were promised things.
When politicians kept promising benefits to those who won't work
You mean retirees?
One major fault is politicians who exchange promises of benefits for votes--promises made far beyond anyone's ability to deliver.
Well, but let's be specific about whose votes they were courting for that. Nobody courts the youth vote, because for all intents and purposes, there is no youth vote. But seniors get out the vote. Of course they do - who else has the time to wait in line at the polling place on a Tuesday? Everybody else is working.
So, sure - politicians learned that they could count on aging Baby Boomers to deliver votes if they promised to mortgage their children and grandchildren into bondage to keep that sweet, sweet government teat a' flowin'. Like I said, I have no idea what compelled the Baby Boomers to so overwhelmingly turn on their own children and grandchildren, but you've successfully articulated the means by which this generational warfare has been fought.
The can was simply kicked down the road through increasing debt. Well, that debt is coming due.
Is it? How is it coming due? Please be specific. When the government can borrow money at negative real interest rates, isn't kicking the can down the road exactly what we should do?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Coyote, posted 12-11-2011 9:34 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(10)
Message 161 of 208 (643801)
12-12-2011 12:25 AM


What OWS Is Talking About
30 Major U.S. Corporations Paid More to Lobby Congress Than Income Taxes, 2008-2010.
Let's look at General Electric, at the top of the list.
Their profits in that period were $10.4 billion.
Taxes paid: $0.
Money received in government handouts (tax "rebates" on the taxes that they didn't actually pay): $4.7 billion.
Now, perhaps I am economically naive. Perhaps I don't understand the world of high finance. Perhaps there is a really good reason why a company which by its own unaided efforts could make $5.7 billion should have that topped up to $10.4 billion using taxes paid by ordinary citizens and by small (or at least smaller) businesses. It would have to be a damn good reason, but perhaps there is one, and perhaps some of the conservatives round here could tell us what it is, some time when they're not too busy condemning the provision of food stamps to people who don't make ten billion dollars a year.
But I would be more readily convinced that there was a good reason if G.E. hadn't also spent $84 million on attempting to influence the political process. After all, if there really was a damn good reason --- if it really is better and wiser that this should be so --- then couldn't that reason appeal to legislators simply on its own merits?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


(1)
Message 162 of 208 (643832)
12-12-2011 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by crashfrog
12-09-2011 4:58 PM


Re: hear from a conservatively inclined but not entirely lunatic person
Crashfrog writes:
If we were talking about your health, and you wanted to do one thing and your doctors - who are experts - wanted you to do another, isn't the "responsible" thing to follow the expert advice of your doctors?
I think the responsible thing to do would be to get a 2nd or 3rd opinion. If my doctor recommends I do something or take a medication that I disagree with, then I will get another opinion or even go and see a specialist. General practitioners are fine for most things, but I take care of myself, so I’ll be seeing someone else on many issues.
I'm puzzled by your notion that it was somehow "irresponsible" for many thousands of Americans to follow the advice of the experts who claimed to be acting on their behalf. You're turning the very notion of "responsibility" on its head.
While it seems you just like to blame others for the negative things that have happened in your life.
I doubt very much that you're pulling down the cool quarter-mil a year necessary to be in the 1%.
I refuse to support the 99%, I aint part of their Bullshit movement.
Sometimes bad things happen to good people, AE. I know that's a revolutionary thought to a conservative such as yourself, but its nonetheless true (and its exactly what you'll claim is happening every time something bad happens to you. Conservatives love personal responsibility unless they're the ones being asked to take it.)
I would take personal responsibility for the ass kicking you’d receive if we ever met face to face. I’d gladly do some time, and pay a fine to kick your punk ass. I just know that you would never show up, so keep talking your shit, and I'll keep talking mine. deal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by crashfrog, posted 12-09-2011 4:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by crashfrog, posted 12-12-2011 11:10 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-12-2011 12:21 PM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 170 by Theodoric, posted 12-12-2011 12:56 PM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 174 by Butterflytyrant, posted 12-12-2011 9:52 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 163 of 208 (643833)
12-12-2011 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Shield
12-11-2011 3:18 PM


Re: really?
thanks for making mine. you are the one who started with the name calling.
what does rbp stand for? real bitchass pussy?
is your clit still sore?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Shield, posted 12-11-2011 3:18 PM Shield has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by AdminModulous, posted 12-12-2011 10:26 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 165 by Theodoric, posted 12-12-2011 10:46 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


(9)
Message 164 of 208 (643834)
12-12-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Artemis Entreri
12-12-2011 10:18 AM


48 hour suspension
I was happy to let Message 152 slide on the grounds you were called a retard a liar and/or a troll and I didn't feel like having to suspend two people (again!) for what is basically a minor tiff.
But this post wasn't even remotely necessary. I trust I do not need to explain why it is a problem. Take a 48 hour break. If I have to do this again within however long my memory lasts, it will probably be closer to 96 hours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-12-2011 10:18 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 165 of 208 (643836)
12-12-2011 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Artemis Entreri
12-12-2011 10:18 AM


Wow!!!
The misogyny is amazing.
Isn't this the same guy that was accusing people of name calling?
Good riddance
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Artemis Entreri, posted 12-12-2011 10:18 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
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