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Author Topic:   Instinctual Behavior Vs Intelligent Decisions
Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 16 of 83 (643843)
12-12-2011 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
12-11-2011 9:56 AM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
Much that is often considered "instinctual" real is learned behavior.
I agree that it is difficult sometimes to tell the difference. But I would add that learning itself could be considered an instinctual behaviour.
I'm not as sure that "making intelligent decisions is the instinctive behaviour in at least one species on this planet and probably more" as you seem to be.
Why not? We seem to all be doing it.
But we see examples of at least one species on this planet and maybe more making unintelligent decisions pretty regularly.
Equivocating on 'intelligent'? I don't mean 'well considered', or 'smart choices'. Obviously we are not perfect decision makers, and often make poor decisions. By intelligent I mean decisions that are arrived at through simulation, consideration, introspection etc as oppose to decisions that are made near instantly through basal instinctive reactions.

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 Message 13 by jar, posted 12-11-2011 9:56 AM jar has replied

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 Message 17 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 11:24 AM Modulous has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 83 (643845)
12-12-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Modulous
12-12-2011 11:20 AM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
Equivocating on 'intelligent'? I don't mean 'well considered', or 'smart choices'. Obviously we are not perfect decision makers, and often make poor decisions. By intelligent I mean decisions that are arrived at through simulation, consideration, introspection etc as oppose to decisions that are made near instantly through basal instinctive reactions.
But that is exactly the problem.
First, humans in general seem to make many decisions without simulation, consideration, introspection etc.
Second, many decisions can be learned and practiced until they become "instinctual".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 16 by Modulous, posted 12-12-2011 11:20 AM Modulous has replied

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 Message 18 by Modulous, posted 12-12-2011 11:33 AM jar has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 18 of 83 (643847)
12-12-2011 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
12-12-2011 11:24 AM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
First, humans in general seem to make many decisions without simulation, consideration, introspection etc.
Agreed. But I don't think those are the Intelligent Decisions we are talking about in this thread. (Those would probably be instinctive behaviours instead)
Second, many decisions can be learned and practiced until they become "instinctual".
Agreed.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

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 Message 17 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 11:24 AM jar has replied

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 Message 19 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 11:44 AM Modulous has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 83 (643849)
12-12-2011 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Modulous
12-12-2011 11:33 AM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
So doesn't the evidence seems to point to making decisions based on simulation, consideration, introspection etc not being instinctual but yet another learned trait?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Modulous, posted 12-12-2011 11:33 AM Modulous has replied

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 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 12-12-2011 11:48 AM jar has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 20 of 83 (643850)
12-12-2011 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
12-12-2011 11:44 AM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
So doesn't the evidence seems to point to making decisions based on simulation, consideration, introspection etc not being instinctual but yet another learned trait?
No, the evidence suggests that we have brain structures specifically designed for simulation etc. So it would appear to be instinctual. Of course, we can learn how to do it better.

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 Message 19 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 11:44 AM jar has replied

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 Message 21 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 12:07 PM Modulous has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 21 of 83 (643854)
12-12-2011 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Modulous
12-12-2011 11:48 AM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense.
All that shows is that we have certain physical capabilities; I don't see why that makes anything instinctual.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 12-12-2011 11:48 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 12-12-2011 12:30 PM jar has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 22 of 83 (643857)
12-12-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
12-12-2011 12:07 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
All that shows is that we have certain physical capabilities; I don't see why that makes anything instinctual.
And what are instincts if not the physical tendencies of the brain? We have portions of the brain dedicated to a certain kind of behaviour that is called 'intelligent', this part of the brain develops as part of our in-built developmental process.
We think, cogitate, ruminate and simulate as if it were an integral part of our nature. The evidence for this is that the brain structures exist and the behaviour appears to be universal.
It is indeed, one of the most remarkable things observed about humans. We do it effortlessly and without training (though we often make mistakes when we rely on heuristics and biases rather than disinterested reason, so we can certainly learn to harness our instincts better - they are after all evolved traits for a different environment than we find ourselves in now).
So yeah - if we regard instinct as being the thing that our brains do naturally, without explicit learning, then yes, making intelligent decisions is instinctual. Making good decisions in the modern world is not instinctual, and must be learned.

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 Message 21 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 12:07 PM jar has replied

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 Message 28 by jar, posted 12-12-2011 3:38 PM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 23 of 83 (643874)
12-12-2011 1:40 PM


Surely difference between intinctive behaviour and intelligence is the ability to solve novel problems in novel ways?

Life, don't talk to me about life.

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 83 (643878)
12-12-2011 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
12-12-2011 12:30 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
Perhaps it is too broad to simply label an action as 'intelligent'.
For this thread, at least, it seems important to examine behaviors in light of the physical actions taking place. So we look at the spider spinning a web as a specific behavior: web spinning; or the beaver building the dam as a specific behavior: dam building; or the person building a sky-scraper as a specific behavior: sky-scrapper building.
From this level, it is clear that the first two behaviors are hard-wired and instinctual, the third one seems less so.
It's pretty clear that 'intelligence' itself is innate in human beings, but all specific behaviorsor manifestations of that intelligenceare not. Some seemingly intelligent behaviors are innate, of course, such as Language.
Using Crash's criteria, all [normal] humans utilize the Language behavior, and so we can say it is innate; but not all humans utilize the English behavior, or the Swahili behavior, or... etc, so we would not say 'speaking English is an innate human behavior'. We would, however, say that 'speaking/using language (in general) is an innate human behavior'.
Thus, the issue at hand here seems to be figuring out how we can distinguish between behaviors that are instinctual at their base and behaviors which are merely the manifestations of some form of intelligenceeven if the intelligence itself is innate.
Admittedly I don't see the higher purpose in doing this, except in allowing folk to classify things as either intelligent or not intelligent based on some arbitrary criteria so that they can feel as if their application of the word 'intelligent' is more meaningful and less arbitrary than it really is and less so than the nature of this whole exercise reveals it to be.
But Wolly seems interested in it...
Jon
Edited by Jon, : clarity

Love your enemies!

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 25 of 83 (643880)
12-12-2011 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jon
12-12-2011 2:14 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
Jon writes:
Thus, the issue at hand here seems to be figuring out how we can distinguish between behaviors that are instinctual at their base and behaviors which are merely the manifestations of some form of intelligenceeven if the intelligence itself is innate.
[is my microphone on?]
Umm, it's the ability to solve novel problems in novel ways.

Life, don't talk to me about life.

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 Message 24 by Jon, posted 12-12-2011 2:14 PM Jon has replied

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 Message 26 by Jon, posted 12-12-2011 2:41 PM Tangle has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 83 (643881)
12-12-2011 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
12-12-2011 2:26 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
Umm, it's the ability to solve novel problems in novel ways.
Do you have some examples to go with that?
Sounds like a good start, for sure, but it would be dishonest of us to conclude the search for an answer over so soon and without any investigating.
Jon

Love your enemies!

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 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2011 2:26 PM Tangle has replied

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 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2011 3:20 PM Jon has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 27 of 83 (643883)
12-12-2011 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jon
12-12-2011 2:41 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
jon writes:
Do you have some examples to go with that?
Only the blindingly obvious - a spider will spin it's web in the same way no matter where you put it - a funnel web maker will never spin a spiral web even if it's life depended on it. A crow will never build a nest in a hedge even if all it's usual trees are felled. Etc etc
Non-human animals can't adblib - or at least have a infinately diminished ability to do it compared to a human.
A human can see a new problem and work out a new solution. We can invent and create, have ideas, test, adapt, experiment and improve.

Life, don't talk to me about life.

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 Message 26 by Jon, posted 12-12-2011 2:41 PM Jon has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 83 (643889)
12-12-2011 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Modulous
12-12-2011 12:30 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
So yeah - if we regard instinct as being the thing that our brains do naturally, without explicit learning, then yes, making intelligent decisions is instinctual.
Sorry but I still don't get your use of the word "intelligent decisions" as being instinctive; it seems to have no meaning. How is your use of "intelligent decisions" different than just the single word "decisions"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Modulous, posted 12-12-2011 12:30 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 12-13-2011 1:19 PM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 83 (643892)
12-12-2011 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tangle
12-12-2011 3:20 PM


Novel Ideas and Intelligence
A human can see a new problem and work out a new solution. We can invent and create, have ideas, test, adapt, experiment and improve.
What types of things specifically? For example, I mentioned language in my earlier post, claiming that the use of language in general is an innate behavior in humans, but that the use of any one language in particular is not.
How can we filter this situation through your criteria of novel solution vs. unadaptable behavior?
Further, defining intelligence as 'the ability to solve novel problems in novel ways' seems only to address things on a species-wide level, and doesn't look at the behavior itself to determine whether the critter is exhibiting evidence of intelligence or not.
How can we use your filter with specific behaviors?
If we want to get general, we can simply mark off finding new solutions as 'business as usual' for us H. sapiens and so conclude that there's little novel about it.
Why can't we do that?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2011 3:20 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2011 4:14 PM Jon has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 30 of 83 (643895)
12-12-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
12-12-2011 3:52 PM


Re: Novel Ideas and Intelligence
jon writes:
How can we use your filter with specific behaviors?
If we want to get general, we can simply mark off finding new solutions as 'business as usual' for us H. sapiens and so conclude that there's little novel about it.
Why can't we do that?
i'm sorry, I just don't recognise your problem or feel that your filters or specific behaviours or languages mean anything.
An animal merely repeating the behaviour of all other members of it's species is not doing anything intelligent regardless of how complex it seems.
If it's capable of solving a problem that it's never encountered before it's got a measure of intelligence. If it creates and uses a tool to do it and none of it's species has ever done before, then it's pretty damn smart (relatively).

Life, don't talk to me about life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 12-12-2011 3:52 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Jon, posted 12-12-2011 4:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
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