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Author Topic:   Hitch is dead
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 61 of 560 (644357)
12-17-2011 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Tangle
12-17-2011 8:59 AM


Re: You Madam, are not a Christian.
The problem with pig-ignorant, hate-filled and downright unpleasant 'Christians' like you is that you don't even live by the book that you say you revere so much. If you did, I'd at least respect your delusions
This is of course an outright lie. You would still respect nothing and still make light of and blaspheme all its tenets
You say what you say now, for argument sake only
Atleast try to honest in your inconsistency
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

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Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 62 of 560 (644359)
12-17-2011 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Granny Magda
12-17-2011 9:27 AM


Re: Speaking Ill of the Dead
If, on the other hand, they are merely trolling, well that is both pathetic and despicable. Such people reveal themselves in their own words. Best ignore them.
Five years of debating could hardly be considered trolling. Please try again
BTW, please send me (us) all of Hitchens overwhelming insight and wisdom, we are happy to deal with them, as we have anyother
Dawn Bertot

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 63 of 560 (644361)
12-17-2011 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2011 11:37 PM


Re: Afterlife Surprises
What mocks God and Blasphemes the Holy Spirit is the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
Hitch never mocked GOD or Blasphemed the Holy Spirit, he mocked the little bling-bling pimp daddy god marketed by many chapters of Club Christian.
Hitch was honest and bright and while I often disagreed with him, one area I did not disagree with Hitch was that there is almost nothing of Jesus message in the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
I cannot imagine GOD not welcoming Hitch home, and laying on one hell of a pachanga when he gets there.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(3)
Message 64 of 560 (644363)
12-17-2011 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2011 11:37 PM


Re: Afterlife Surprises
He was a filthy piece of garbage and a piece of dung. Recieve that which you have reaped Mr Hitchens
Ah, there's that Christian compassion and love for one's fellow man on display yet again.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 65 of 560 (644365)
12-17-2011 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Granny Magda
12-17-2011 9:27 AM


Re: Speaking Ill of the Dead
Granny Magda writes:
If people vilified Hitchens during his life I see no particular reason why they should cease to do so upon his death, provided that they are sincere.
If, on the other hand, they are merely trolling, well that is both pathetic and despicable. Such people reveal themselves in their own words. Best ignore them.
Agreed. i'm just occasionally taken aback by the malignancy of some who would call themselves Christians. It's good to be reminded of it from time to time.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits"

Life, don't talk to me about life.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 66 of 560 (644369)
12-17-2011 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Tangle
12-17-2011 9:57 AM


Re: Speaking Ill of the Dead
i'm just occasionally taken aback by the malignancy of some who would call themselves Christians.
This is something I think Hitch was trying to change: giving Christians the benefit of the doubt that they do actually have the moral high ground, so that when they act putrid and vial, we point it out as we do and claim they are somehow being hypocritical. If, instead, we see them for what they are: immature and close minded, in need of a sky-daddy to dictate their life and give them meaning, it should come as no surprise when they act like complete and utter twats when confronted with evidence or opinion that contradicts their beliefs.

Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 560 (644373)
12-17-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by hooah212002
12-17-2011 10:05 AM


Re: Speaking Ill of the Dead
They could be said to be "overly polemic".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(5)
Message 68 of 560 (644376)
12-17-2011 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dawn Bertot
12-17-2011 8:38 AM


Re: Afterlife Surprises
Buz, Artimes, Portillo,
What shining examples of your faith you are.
Would you expect any of us on the science side to mock a priest when he dies?
You disgust me.
Dawn Bertot -
Is your god so fucking weak that he needs you to defend him?
You fellas have not the slightest hestitation to demean the God of the Bible, you even seem to take pleasure in it, with your heros like Hitchens
I demean your god because he deserves it. I say negative things about the bad guys in any book or movie I watch.
Irepeat he was a piece of Garbage and a piece of dung, especially compared to the entity that created and has and has maintained your worthless existence. There si a difference in people who do things in ignorance and those like Hitchens that flaunt thier blasphemy in the open
Lets see what Hitch said about the entity who created us...
You are offensive to those mourning a dead man because he debated against your god.
Hitch fought for the common person without any hope for an eternal reward.
I believe that makes him more altruistic than the average christian.
He was a better man than me, he was a better man than you.
The least you could do, the least any respectful, decent person would do, is maintain silence. You did not have to post anything.
Posting derogitory remarks only makes me more comfortable in my position in direct opposition to you and those like you.
If there is a god, and it is the one discussed in the bible, then Hitch is probably discussing with him how to deal with people like you.
Because people like you are his enemy as much as Hitches.
Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson
2011 leading candidate for the EvC Forum Don Quixote award

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 69 of 560 (644383)
12-17-2011 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Straggler
12-17-2011 8:46 AM


Some More Quotes
Beware the irrational, however seductive. Shun the 'transcendent' and all who invite you to subordinate or annihilate yourself. Distrust compassion; prefer dignity for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to be thought arrogant or selfish. Picture all experts as if they were mammals. Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence. Suspect your own motives, and all excuses. Do not live for others any more than you would expect others to live for you.
Christopher Hitchens
=================
What are the facts? Again and again and againwhat are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what "the stars foretell," avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history"; what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
Robert A. Heinlein, 1973
Added:
Of all the strange "crimes" that human beings have legislated of nothing, "blasphemy" is the most amazing - with "obscenity" and "indecent exposure" fighting it out for the second and third place.
Edited by Coyote, : Additional quote

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(9)
Message 70 of 560 (644387)
12-17-2011 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dawn Bertot
12-17-2011 9:32 AM


Speaking Ill of the Dumb
Five years of debating could hardly be considered trolling. Please try again
If you weren't quite so shamefully stupid and illiterate, you might have noticed that I was actually defending you there, you colossal moron.
You criticised Hitchens.
I defended your right to do so.
I never accused you of trolling and in point of fact, was not thinking of you when I mentioned trolling.
Remember what I wrote;
Granny Magda writes:
If people vilified Hitchens during his life I see no particular reason why they should cease to do so upon his death, provided that they are sincere.
But you didn't seem to think that those words applied to you. You assumed that the bit about trolls did apply to you. How very revealing.
BTW, please send me (us) all of Hitchens overwhelming insight and wisdom, we are happy to deal with them, as we have anyother
If you want to read his books, buy or download them them yourself. You don't need my help, or at least, you shouldn't.
Mutate and Survive

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 71 of 560 (644388)
12-17-2011 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
12-16-2011 3:52 AM


Christianity Today obit
There have been a number of responses here by professed "Christians" of various stripes, none of which I can agree with very far.
But there is a nice obituary of Hitchens posted on ChristianityToday.com by Doug Wilson, who had debated him. Here are some excerpts:
Doug Wilson writes:
"One time we shared a panel in Dallas, and I told the crowd there that if Christopher and I were not careful, we were in danger of becoming friends. During the time we spent together, he never said an unkind thing to meexcept on stage, up in front of everybody. After doing this, he didn't wink at me, but he might as well have. ...
"Christopher knew that faithful Christians believe that it is appointed to man once to die, and after that the Judgment. He knew that we believe what Jesus taught about the reality of damnation. He also knew that we believefor I told himthat in this life, the door of repentance is always open. A wise Puritan once noted what we learn from the last-minute conversion of the thief on the crossone, that no one might despair, but only one, that no one might presume. We have no indication that Christopher ever called on the Lord before he died, and if he did not, then Scriptures plainly teach that he is lost forever. But we do have every indication that Christ died for sinners, men and women just like Christopher. We know that the Lord has more than once hired workers for his vineyard when the sun was almost down (Matt. 20:6).
"We also know that Christopher was worried about this, and was afraid of letting down the infidel team. In a number of interviews during the course of his cancer treatments, he discussed the prospect of a "death bed" conversion, and it was clear that he was concerned about the prospect. ... The subject came up repeatedly, and was plainly a concern to him. Christopher Hitchens was baptized in his infancy, and his name means "Christ-bearer." This created an enormous burden that he tried to shake off his entire life. No creature can ever succeed in doing this. But sometimes, in the kindness of God, such failures can have a gracious twist at the end. We therefore commend Christopher to the Judge of the whole earth, who will certainly do right. Christopher Eric Hitchens (1949-2011). R.I.P"

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 72 of 560 (644390)
12-17-2011 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dawn Bertot
12-16-2011 11:37 PM


Re: Afterlife Surprises
He was a filthy piece of garbage and a piece of dung.
Christian charity: priceless.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong.
Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 73 of 560 (644395)
12-17-2011 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Larni
12-17-2011 1:19 PM


Re: Afterlife Surprises
And so another very likely digression, but if so I'll just claim to be old and use that as an excuse.
The New Testament is filled with examples of Jesus interacting with non-believers and in the stories there is a pattern; in the stories the pattern is that when faced with someone who is exhibiting unbelief Jesus provides sufficient evidence to change their mind. Jesus seems to understand human nature and never threatens or condemns those who do not believe simply based on their doubts; Jesus seems to understand that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Whether it is Thomas requiring additional concrete evidence of Jesus identity, the many failings and loss of belief of Peter, the total disbelief and actual denial of Saul or even the act of betrayal of Judas, Jesus never condemns the individual.
The important part of all that for me is that in the stories at least, God through Jesus provides the characters the evidence they need. Remember that these are all daily companions (with the exception of Saul) and so have been given direct evidence over a period of years.
No one living today has ever received such intimate and ongoing evidence as those people did.
It is unreasonable, irrational and illogical for any of us living today to hold a believe in Jesus' divinity.
It is equally unreasonable, irrational and illogical for God to expect any such belief.
BUT... as pointed out above, the stories tell us that God through Jesus will provide sufficient evidence to convince the skeptic before any condemnation.
If there is a GOD, if the stories of Jesus have any real meaning, then before any condemnation for non-belief I expect Hitch would be provided with sufficient evidence to be convincing of at least Jesus' and GOD's existence.
I am not saying that Hitch would be expected to worship such a critter, only that Hitch as a consistently honest person if faced with sufficient evidence of GOD's and Jesus' existence would acknowledge and conclude they do exist.
If there is a GOD that created all that is, seen and unseen, then I also cannot imagine such a critter being some little bling-bling pimp daddy that gets all bent outta shape if Hitch disses Her when they do meet.
There are very few areas outside of science where I agreed with Hitchens, but I never doubted that his conclusions were based on whatever the evidence supported, regardless of whether or not the evidence supported his initial position.
I hope that I get to sit down with him over some good not too cold Scottish ales in the future.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 74 of 560 (644404)
12-17-2011 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
12-17-2011 8:10 AM


Re: to be twats
So I vote to keep this EvC obituary open in the defense of free expression, allowing the religious and secular thinkers alike to continue their ongoing tirade against each other, in this topic at least...in honor of a man of expression and literary skill, dying with his beliefs intact.
Little noticed in this twisted excuse for a thread but the most fitting tribute of them all. Thanks, Phat.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 75 of 560 (644407)
12-17-2011 4:56 PM


Lament of a Christian Friend of Christopher Hitchens
The article that follows my brief take on it is from CNN. It also has links to some interesting videos.
One thing that comes out of this is that Hitchens was not just some ideologue who refused to look at all sides of an issue. I think that Christians could learn from many of his critiques of the church. I think that so often if one is to base their conclusions of what Christianity is about on the church it is no wonder that many reject it. Christopher Hitchens was very often spot on on his critiques even if IMHO he missed the fundamental truth of Christianity.
I would have loved to have a chance to have lunch with him.
Here is the link to this article and the accompanying video.
[url=My Take: An evangelical remembers his friend Hitchens – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs[]CNN - Christopher Hitchens[/url]
By Larry Alex Taunton, Special to CNN
(CNN)— I first met Christopher Hitchens at the Edinburgh
International Festival. We were both there for the same event, and foremost in my mind was the sort of man I would meet.
A journalist and polemicist, his reputation as a critic of religion, politics, Britain's royal family, and, well, just about everything else was unparalleled. As an evangelical, I was certain that he would hate me.
When the expected knock came at my hotel room door, I braced for the fire-breather who surely stood on the other side of it. With trepidation, I opened it and he burst forth into my room. Wheeling on me, he began the conversation as if it was the continuance of some earlier encounter:
The Archbishop of Canterbury has effectively endorsed the adoption of Sharia law. Can you believe that? Whatever happened to a Church of England that believed in something? He alternated between sips of his Johnnie Walker and steady tugs on a cigarette. My eyebrows shot up. ‘Believed in something?’ Why, Christopher, you sound nostalgic for a church that actually took the Bible seriously.
He considered me for a moment and smiled. Indeed. Perhaps I do.
There was never a formal introduction. There was no need for one. From that moment, I knew that I liked him. We immediately discovered that we had much in common. We were descendants of martial traditions; we loved literature and history; we enjoyed lively discussion with people who didn’t take opposition to a given opinion personally; and we both found small talk boring.
Over the next few years, we would meet irregularly. The location was invariably expensive, a Ritz Carlton or a Ruth’s Chris Steakhouse. He disliked cheap restaurants and cheap liquor. In his view, plastic menus were indicative of bad food. I never ate so well as when I was with Hitch.
More than bad food, however, he disliked unintelligent conversation. What do you think about gay marriage? He didn’t wait for a response. I don’t get it. I really don’t. It’s like wanting the worst of both worlds. He drank deeply of his whiskey. I mean, if I was gay, I would console myself by saying, ‘Well, I’m gay, but at least I don’t have to get married.’ That was classic Hitch. Witty. Provocative. Unpredictable.
Calling him on his cell one day, he sounded like he was flat on his back. Breathing heavily, there was desperation in his voice.
What’s wrong? I asked, anticipating some tragedy.
Only minutes ago, I was diagnosed with esophageal cancer. He was almost gasping.
I didn’t know what to say. No one ever does in such moments, so we resort to meaningless stock phrases like, I’m sorry. Instead, I just groaned. I will never forget his response:
I had plans for the next decade of my life. I think I should cancel them.
He asked me to keep the matter private until he could tell his family and make the news public. Hesitatingly, I told him that while I knew that he did not believe in such things, I would pray for him. He seemed genuinely moved by the thought.
We are still on for our event in Birmingham, right? He asked. I was stunned. Sensing my surprise, he continued. I have made a commitment, he insisted. Besides, what else am I going to do? I can’t just sit around waiting to die.
We are still on for our event in Birmingham, right? He asked. I was stunned. Sensing my surprise, he continued. I have made a commitment, he insisted. Besides, what else am I going to do? I can’t just sit around waiting to die.
As time approached, he suggested a road trip from his D.C. apartment to my home in Birmingham, Alabama.
Flying has become a humiliating experience, don’t you think? He said. Besides, I haven’t taken a road trip in 20 years and it will give us a chance to talk and for me to finally take you up on your challenge.
Arriving in Washington some five months after his diagnosis, I was shocked by his appearance. Heavy doses of chemotherapy had left him emaciated, and hairless but for his eyelashes. His clothes hung off of him as though he were a boy wearing a man’s garments. He was, nonetheless, looking forward to our journey, having packed a picnic lunch and, predictably, enough Johnnie Walker for a battalion. After breakfast with his lovely wife, Carol, and his sweet daughter, Antonia, Hitch and I headed south on an eleven-hour road trip.
Have you a copy of Saint John with you? He asked with a smile. If not, you know I do actually have one. This was a reference to my challenge of two years before: a joint study of the Gospel of John. It was my assertion that he had never really read the Bible, but only cherry-picked it.
Not necessary. I was smiling, too. I brought mine.
A few hours later we were wending our way through the Shenandoah Valley on a beautiful fall morning. As I drove, Hitch read aloud from the first chapter of John’s Gospel. We then discussed its meaning. No cameras, no microphones, no audience. And that always made for better conversation with Hitch. When he referenced our journey in a televised debate with David Berlinski the next day, various media representatives descended on me to ask about our argument. When I said that we didn’t really argue, they lost interest.
But that was the truth. It was a civilized, rational discussion. I did my best to move through the prologue verse by verse, and Christopher asked thoughtful questions. That was it.
A bit put off by how the Berlinski event had played out, Hitch suggested we debate one another. Friend though he was, I knew that Hitch could be a savage debater. More than once I had chaired such engagements where Hitch went after his opponents remorselessly.
Hence, I was more than a bit anxious. Here he was, a celebrated public intellectual, an Oxonian, and bestselling author, and that is to say nothing of that Richard Burton-like, aristocratic, English-accented baritone. That always added a few I.Q. points in the minds of people. With hesitation, I agreed.
We met in Billings, Montana. Hitch had once told me that Montana was the only state he had never been in. I decided to complete his tour of the contiguous United States and arranged for the two of us to meet there. Before the debate, a local television station sent a camera crew over to interview us.
When he was asked what he thought of me, a Christian, and an evangelical at that, Hitch replied: If everyone in the United States had the same qualities of loyalty and care and concern for others that Larry Taunton had, we'd be living in a much better society than we do.
I was moved. Stunned, really. As we left, I told him that I really appreciated the gracious remark.
I meant it and have been waiting for an opportunity to say it.
Later that night we met one another in rhetorical combat. The hall was full. Christopher, not I, was of course the real attraction. He was at the peak of his fame. His fans had traveled near and far to see him demolish another Christian. Overall, it was a hard-fought but friendly affair. Unknown to the audience were the inside jokes. When I told a little story from our road trip, he loved it.
The debate over, I crossed the stage to shake Christopher’s hand. You were quite good tonight, he said with a charming smile as he accepted my proffered hand. I think they enjoyed us.
You were gentle with me, I said as we turned to walk off the stage.
He shook his head. Oh, I held nothing back. He then surveyed the auditorium that still pulsed with energy. We are still having dinner? he asked. Absolutely.
After a quick cigarette on the sidewalk near the backstage door, he went back inside to meet his fans and sign their books.
There was something macabre about it all. I had the unsettling feeling that these weren’t people who cared about him in the least. Instead, they seemed like a bunch of groupies who wanted to have a photo taken with a famous but dying man, so that one day they could show it to their buddies and say, I knew him before he died. It was a sad spectacle.
Turning away, I entered the foyer, where 30 or so Christians greeted me excitedly. Mostly students, they were encouraged by what had happened onstage that night. Someone had spoken for them, and it had put a bounce in their step. One young man told me that he had been close to abandoning his faith, but that the debate had restored his confidence in the truth of the gospel. Another student said that she saw how she could use some of the same arguments. It is a daunting task, really, debating someone of Hitchens' intellect and experience, but if this cheery gathering of believers thought I had done well, then all of the preparation and expense had been worth it.
The next day, the Fixed Point Foundation staff piled into a Suburban and headed for Yellowstone National Park. Christopher and I followed behind in a rented pick-up truck. Accompanied by Simon & Garfunkel (his choice), we drove through the park at a leisurely pace and enjoyed the grandeur of it all.
The second chapter of John’s Gospel was on the agenda: The wedding at Cana where Jesus turned water into wine. That is my favorite miracle, Hitch quipped.
Lunching at a roadside grill, he regaled our staff with stories. Afterwards, he was in high spirits.That’s quite a - how shall I put it? A clan? - team that you’ve got there, he said, watching the teenage members of our group clamber into the big Chevrolet.
Yes, it is, I said, starting the truck. They enjoyed your stories.
I enjoy them. He reclined his seat and we were off again. Shall we do all of the national parks?
Yes, and maybe the whole Bible, too, I suggested playfully. He gave a laugh.
Oh, and Larry, I’ve looked at your book. He added.
And?
Well, all that you say about our conversation is true, but you have one detail wrong.
And what is that? I feared a total rewrite was coming.
You have me drinking Johnnie Walker Red Label. That’s the cheap stuff. I only drink Black Label.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Larry Alex Taunton.
Edited by GDR, : typo

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