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Author Topic:   Which More 3LoT Compatible, Cavediver's Temp.Non-ID Or Buzsaw's Infinite ID Universe
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 241 of 304 (644406)
12-17-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Straggler
12-17-2011 8:51 AM


Re: Entropy Observed?
Buz writes:
The still unanswered question was whether you've seen either the singularity or the BB expansion.

Straggler writes:

What we have seen is increasing entropy.

What did it look like, from the time of the alleged singularity up until the present time? For how long have you actually observed a verified net increase in the entropy of the Universe?

Would an increase in complexity, order and design from chaotic soup billions of years ago to that which is observe be indicative of observing a net increase in entropy of the Universe? If so, how so?

Have you actually observed how far beyond the range of our instruments the Universe extends?

Straggler writes:

What we haven't seen is the decreases in entropy that your model demands.

This has already debated, relative to the fact that that 2LoT allows for work, via an intelligent engineer affecting the entropy of the universe, as per the Buzsaw's Infinite ID Universe.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 12-17-2011 8:51 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2011 10:04 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 243 by Straggler, posted 12-18-2011 7:44 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 12605
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 242 of 304 (644436)
12-17-2011 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Buzsaw
12-17-2011 4:52 PM


Re: Entropy Observed?
What did it look like, from the time of the alleged singularity up until the present time? For how long have you actually observed a verified net increase in the entropy of the Universe?

The same amount of time we've observed an absence of flocks of winged pigs playing on flaming tubas.

Would an increase in complexity, order and design from chaotic soup billions of years ago to that which is observe be indicative of observing a net increase in entropy of the Universe?

Of course.

If so, how so?

Every time we see anything increasing in complexity, order, or design, it does so in a way that increases the net entropy of the universe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Buzsaw, posted 12-17-2011 4:52 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 1:33 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9923
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 243 of 304 (644464)
12-18-2011 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Buzsaw
12-17-2011 4:52 PM


Re: Entropy Observed?
Take a moment to look around you Buz. Every single event and activity you can see is contributing to increasing, never decreasing, entropy.

Do you understand this? Do you dispute this?

You need to answer this simple question if anything remotely resembling progress is to be made here.

Buz writes:

What did it look like, from the time of the alleged singularity up until the present time?

According to the 2LoT it looked like a system continually increasing in entropy.

Buz writes:

For how long have you actually observed a verified net increase in the entropy of the Universe?

For as long as observations of anything have been made. The 2nd law of thermodynamics in it's most succinct form is simply ds > 0. I.e. the change in entropy is always positive. There are no observed violations of this.

Buz writes:

Would an increase in complexity, order and design from chaotic soup billions of years ago to that which is observe be indicative of observing a net increase in entropy of the Universe?

Yes (although your use of the phrase "chaotic soup" is misplaced)

Buz writes:

If so, how so?

By progressing from a state of low entropy to state of higher entropy in a manner consistent with every observation ever made.

Buz writes:

Have you actually observed how far beyond the range of our instruments the Universe extends?

No. Are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting ALL of the observed increases in entropy by causing entropy reductions in some area of the universe that is unseen and unobservable?

Buz writes:

This has already debated, relative to the fact that that 2LoT allows for work, via an intelligent engineer affecting the entropy of the universe, as per the Buzsaw's Infinite ID Universe.

When you say "affecting" are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting ALL of the observed increases in entropy by causing corresponding reductions in entropy in some unseen and unobservable way?

Buz writes:

This has already debated, relative to the fact that that 2LoT allows for work, via an intelligent engineer affecting the entropy of the universe, as per the Buzsaw's Infinite ID Universe.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that it is not possible to do work to reduce entropy locally without contributing to a net increase in the entropy of the universe as a whole. The 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us that entropy only ever increases, never decreases, overall. No violations of this have ever been observed. If the universe has existed for eternity (as you tell us it has) then according to the second law of thermodynamics the universe would necessarily be in a state of maximum entropy (i.e. heat death)

Now you posit the reason for the universe NOT being in a state of maximum entropy to be that some supernatural entity is constantly "managing" the energy within the closed system that is the universe. Given that we have only ever observed increases in entropy and never decreases the only way this supernatural entity of yours can avoid a state a maximum entropy is by undertaking acts of 2nd law defying entropy reversals isn't it?

Whether you realise it or not this entity as you have described it would necessitate continual violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Your model necessitates that such violations occur.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Buzsaw, posted 12-17-2011 4:52 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2011 8:46 AM Straggler has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 4518
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 244 of 304 (644471)
12-18-2011 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Straggler
12-18-2011 7:44 AM


Entropy
I think one of the problems is buzz's inability to understand what the word entropy means. He is throwing out all of science because he misunderstands a word.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Straggler, posted 12-18-2011 7:44 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Straggler, posted 12-18-2011 11:46 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9923
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 245 of 304 (644498)
12-18-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Theodoric
12-18-2011 8:46 AM


Re: Entropy
Theo writes:

I think one of the problems is buzz's inability to understand what the word entropy means.

Frankly this almost goes without saying.

But being the eternal optimist that I am my hope is that even Buz will start to get a glimmer of why it is that his eternal universe cannot possibly comply with the second law of thermodynamics.

Put simply - A non-expanding universe which has existed for eternity and in which every single change in entropy is positive will necessarily be in a state of maximum entropy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2011 8:46 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 1:50 PM Straggler has responded

  
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 246 of 304 (644503)
12-18-2011 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Dr Adequate
12-17-2011 10:04 PM


Re: Entropy Observed?
Straggler writes:

Every time we see anything increasing in complexity, order, or design, it does so in a way that increases the net entropy of the universe.

Please explain this and post a reliable link source which agrees.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2011 10:04 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Straggler, posted 12-18-2011 1:45 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 263 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-18-2011 9:24 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9923
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 247 of 304 (644504)
12-18-2011 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Buzsaw
12-18-2011 1:33 PM


Re: Entropy Observed?
I didn't write that. Dr Adequate did.

But frankly any link on thermodynamics or entropy will tell you this if you understand it because that (essentially) is what the 2nd LoT is.

Perhaps it would aid understanding if you gave us a specific example of something increasing in "complexity order or design" which you think results in a decrease in net entropy and then we can tell you step by step why the change in entropy will actually be positive.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 1:33 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 1:59 PM Straggler has responded

  
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 248 of 304 (644505)
12-18-2011 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Straggler
12-18-2011 11:46 AM


Re: Entropy
Straggler writes:

Put simply - A non-expanding universe which has existed for eternity and in which every single change in entropy is positive will necessarily be in a state of maximum entropy.

Stragger you are posting blind, unsupported assertions, choosing to ignore some aspects of my hypothesis. You need to show how you arrive at statements such as the above.

For example, you know that 2LoT allows for engineered ID work within the system. You know that my hypothesis includes an eternal ID engineer eternally managing the system.

You should know that at least some evidence which I have posted over the 8 years is supportive to the existence of Jehovah, the Biblical god. Whether or not you believe the evidence is reliable, at least, that is what my hypothesis states.

In response to my messages, you should either just say you don't believe my premise and move on or respond on the basis of what my hypothesis so as to falsify my position, as I have stated it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Straggler, posted 12-18-2011 11:46 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 12-18-2011 1:57 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 252 by Straggler, posted 12-18-2011 2:22 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 249 of 304 (644506)
12-18-2011 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Buzsaw
12-18-2011 1:50 PM


Where is the evidence Buz?
Buz writes:

You should know that at least some evidence which I have posted over the 8 years is supportive to the existence of Jehovah, the Biblical god.

Sorry Buz but I must have missed that post. Do you have a link to where you actually provided any evidence supportive to the existence of Jehovah, the Biblical god?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 1:50 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

  
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 250 of 304 (644507)
12-18-2011 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Straggler
12-18-2011 1:45 PM


Re: Entropy Observed?
Straggler writes:

I didn't write that. Dr Adequate did.

But frankly any link on thermodynamics or entropy will tell you this if you understand it because that (essentially) is what the 2nd LoT is.

My apologies for the reply mistake.

This, again, is a blind assertion. You need to link your source and highlight in it precisely what falsifies my position.

I've already posted and highlighted where Wiki, on 2LoT allows for a working designer. Now I want one that contradicts that and an explanation as to how mine is falsified.

What I am asking is what I am required to do. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. No?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Straggler, posted 12-18-2011 1:45 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Straggler, posted 12-18-2011 2:09 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 253 by Son, posted 12-18-2011 4:12 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9923
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 251 of 304 (644508)
12-18-2011 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Buzsaw
12-18-2011 1:59 PM


Re: Entropy Observed?
So - just to be clear - You think the second law of thermodynamics tells us that entropy always increases EXCEPT when intelligent beings decide to impose order in the world and reduce net entropy in doing so.

Is this what you think?

Is this the misapprehension that you are asking us to relieve you of?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 1:59 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 9:01 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9923
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 252 of 304 (644510)
12-18-2011 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Buzsaw
12-18-2011 1:50 PM


Re: Entropy
Take a moment to look around you Buz. Every single event and activity you can see is contributing to increasing, never decreasing, entropy.

Do you understand this? Do you dispute this?

You need to answer this simple question if anything remotely resembling progress is to be made here.

Buz writes:

For example, you know that 2LoT allows for engineered ID work within the system. You know that my hypothesis includes an eternal ID engineer eternally managing the system.

I do know that.

What you haven't told us is how this designer is counteracting all of the observed increases in entropy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 1:50 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 6:24 PM Straggler has responded

  
Son
Member (Idle past 211 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 253 of 304 (644513)
12-18-2011 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Buzsaw
12-18-2011 1:59 PM


Re: Entropy Observed?
The problem is what the 2lot doesn't allow for is a global decrease in entropy though. If a designer work within a closed system (like the Universe) and is also part of it, then whatever the intelligent designer does, the entropy will increase. Why do you want science to agree with you? It's obvious you think religion is superior to science so there's no need for you to misrepresent science so that it agrees with you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 1:59 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 5:44 PM Son has responded

    
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 254 of 304 (644521)
12-18-2011 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Son
12-18-2011 4:12 PM


Re: Entropy Observed?
Son writes:

The problem is what the 2lot doesn't allow for is a global decrease in entropy

Any change within the system would affect the net of the whole system. No? If not, how so?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Son, posted 12-18-2011 4:12 PM Son has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by PaulK, posted 12-18-2011 5:58 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 256 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2011 6:19 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 279 by Son, posted 12-19-2011 4:05 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 10725
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 255 of 304 (644523)
12-18-2011 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Buzsaw
12-18-2011 5:44 PM


Re: Entropy Observed?
Buz, instead of being cryptic all the time why don't you explain your point. Are you claiming that your "intelligent designer" can decrease the total entropy of the universe ? Just by doing work ? Indefinitely with only a finite amount of energy ? If not, then what is the point of bringing it up at all ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 5:44 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Buzsaw, posted 12-18-2011 8:20 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
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