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Author Topic:   Instinctual Behavior Vs Intelligent Decisions
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 46 of 83 (644609)
12-19-2011 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
12-19-2011 12:42 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
I do not see evidence that we inherit our intelligence, sorry.
I merely point to the brain, especially the Frontal Lobe of the Cortex. A part of the brain that handles reasoning, planning and problem solving, and say 'I inherited that'. When that lobe is being used, I am being 'intelligent', as I define it. I use that lobe instinctively, though it takes a lot of learning to use it well.

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 Message 45 by jar, posted 12-19-2011 12:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 83 (644610)
12-19-2011 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
12-19-2011 12:42 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
I do not see evidence that we inherit our intelligence, sorry.
Well if you had the DNA of a pumpkin you would be markedly less intelligent.

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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 83 (644620)
12-19-2011 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Modulous
12-19-2011 1:25 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
Yes, I know that is what you say.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 49 of 83 (644624)
12-19-2011 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
12-13-2011 7:34 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
jar writes:
We use our brain, and we learn how to do that.
It's not binary, we both have (are born with) intelligence and we learn how to use it. A child will behave relatively intelligently whether taught or not.

Life, don't talk to me about life.

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 Message 40 by jar, posted 12-13-2011 7:34 PM jar has replied

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 Message 50 by jar, posted 12-19-2011 3:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 83 (644625)
12-19-2011 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Tangle
12-19-2011 3:32 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
Really?
Have you ever been around a child?
I'm sorry but you guys are really getting silly I fear and trivializing the term "Intelligence" to the point it has about as much meaning as saying "we walking on our feet instinctively".
Sure the hardware is (kinda) there and that is trivially true. We cannot walk with our ears or think with our noses but we learn to think by working at it, by trial and error, by practice and failure. Just as we learn to control the muscles and concentration needed enable us to use our feet to walk, we learn to think, to consider, to make choices and decisions.
I do not see evidence that "intelligence" is instinctual.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 49 by Tangle, posted 12-19-2011 3:32 PM Tangle has replied

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 51 of 83 (644630)
12-19-2011 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
12-19-2011 3:43 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
jar writes:
Have you ever been around a child?
Weirdly, not only have I been around quite a lot of children I've been one myself.
Of course, kids are intelligent. Sheesh.

Life, don't talk to me about life.

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 52 of 83 (644671)
12-19-2011 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Modulous
12-19-2011 12:40 PM


Re: making unintelligent decisions
Yes, we inherit our intelligence. Much of this is caused by the genome we inherit - along with the environment of our development. This genome has mutated since it first came into being. The current theory would predict that the first life was not intelligent. So intelligence has arisen through the mechanisms described by the present theory of evolution. There may be further mechanisms that are as yet unknown.
"along with the environment of our development. " Could you be more specific please? Is it learninig included? Could these "further mechanisms" be learning as well?

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 53 of 83 (644710)
12-20-2011 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by zi ko
12-19-2011 11:08 PM


the environment
"along with the environment of our development. " Could you be more specific please? Is it learninig included?
The womb seems to be an important environment that has significant impact on development. I'm excluding the learned aspects because I'm specifically talking about instinctive (ie., not learned) behaviour.
Could these "further mechanisms" be learning as well?
But sure, learning is an important part of human brain development, but I'm talking about the unlearned stuff specifically.

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 Message 52 by zi ko, posted 12-19-2011 11:08 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 54 of 83 (644848)
12-21-2011 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Modulous
12-20-2011 8:37 AM


Re: the environment
But sure, learning is an important part of human brain development, but I'm talking about the unlearned stuff specifically.
How cam we be sure that leant behaviour ,repeated over many generations, is not finally ingrained to genetical structures so to be inherited and instinctive at the end? I know this thought is forbidden by Darwinism and current theory, but what is the evidence agajnst?

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 Message 53 by Modulous, posted 12-20-2011 8:37 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 12-21-2011 10:46 AM zi ko has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 55 of 83 (644852)
12-21-2011 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by zi ko
12-21-2011 6:49 AM


Re: the environment
What you have described is by no means 'forbidden' by Darwinism, it is essentially an example of what Waddington called canalisation, the repeated behaviour forms the suitable environment to select for variations which promote that behaviour. Waddington further called the situation where an organism chooses its own environment to a degree or modifies that environment to its own ends 'The Exploitive System'.
Waddington identified 4 systems involved in evolution, the exploitive system, the epigenetic system, the natural selective system and the genetic system.
Of course whether such a thing would occur would be highly dependent on what the specific behaviour was and how it would become selectively advantageous. Mere repetition would not be sufficient
TTFN,
WK

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 56 of 83 (644869)
12-21-2011 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by zi ko
12-21-2011 6:49 AM


Re: the environment
How cam we be sure that leant behaviour ,repeated over many generations, is not finally ingrained to genetical structures so to be inherited and instinctive at the end?
I'm not sure. In fact I'm persuaded that it does in fact happen. I can't remember the name of the effect, but the idea that organisms that learn ideas quickly have greater success - the faster the better- and this continues until it is no longer even required for the behaviour to be learned at all.

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 Message 54 by zi ko, posted 12-21-2011 6:49 AM zi ko has replied

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 57 of 83 (644894)
12-21-2011 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Modulous
12-21-2011 10:46 AM


Re: the environment
I'm not sure. In fact I'm persuaded that it does in fact happen. I can't remember the name of the effect, but the idea that organisms that learn ideas quickly have greater success - the faster the better- and this continues until it is no longer even required for the behaviour to be learned at all.
If i understood it well , it seems that you believe that instincts in first place had been learned and so are not the result of mutations .

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 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 12-21-2011 10:46 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Modulous, posted 12-21-2011 12:59 PM zi ko has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 58 of 83 (644895)
12-21-2011 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by zi ko
12-21-2011 12:42 PM


Re: the environment
If i understood it well , it seems that you believe that instincts in first place had been learned and so are not the result of mutations .
Then you haven't understood it well.
Some instincts may have originally been learned behaviour, but certainly not all instincts. And even those that are originally learned and later became instinctual did so as a result of mutations.

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 Message 57 by zi ko, posted 12-21-2011 12:42 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by zi ko, posted 12-22-2011 11:19 AM Modulous has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 59 of 83 (645009)
12-22-2011 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Wounded King
12-21-2011 8:03 AM


Re: Neural system and evolution.
What you have described is by no means 'forbidden' by Darwinism, it is essentially an example of what Waddington called canalisation, the repeated behaviour forms the suitable environment to select for variations which promote that behaviour. Waddington further called the situation where an organism chooses its own environment to a degree or modifies that environment to its own ends 'The Exploitive System'.
Waddington identified 4 systems involved in evolution, the exploitive system, the epigenetic system, the natural selective system and the genetic system.
This repeated behaviour, which obviously predates any instinct formation,is carried out mainly through leerning process by neural system. This type of behaviour may or may not form any suitable environment. The gee dance in order to inform other gees does not have any impact on environment.In any case Environment change is trivial to instinct formation.Before the time learnt behavior could affect environment, many generations must have past.But in this case how the behaviour could be transferred to next generatios?

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 60 of 83 (645013)
12-22-2011 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Modulous
12-21-2011 12:59 PM


Re: Neural system and evolution.
Some instincts may have originally been learned behaviour, but certainly not all instincts. And even those that are originally learned and later became instinctual did so as a result of mutations.
So lets take the example of a crow, who had learnt to choose and use a special long leaf rugged in apropriate direction, so to take out insects from inside their nests. She uses the method In her life span.How this knowledge is transferred to next generations if not a relative mutation does not happen on this specific crow? But surely the propabilities are that it will not happen.All the effort will go in vain! I dont think crows are so stupid to let it happen!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Replies to this message:
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