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Author Topic:   How did the Aborigines get to Australia?
Granny Magda
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Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
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(2)
Message 31 of 226 (646049)
01-02-2012 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by RAZD
01-02-2012 8:46 AM


Re: Gondwandaland, Wallace and biogeography
Hi Zen Deist,
There was no land bridge between Asia and Australia.
No, not directly, but that wasn't quite what I had in mind when I first brought this up.
There was no direct link between what we now call Asia and what we now call Australia, but there was, at one point, an more-or-less overland connection, via Gondwana. The marsupials took the looooong way around.
What matters for the purpose of this discussion is that the Marsupials appear to have originated in Laurasia, possibly in what is now China. They spread into Gondwana via what is now North America. They then moved into South America and then Antarctica and eventually Australia. As those three continents drifted apart, their marsupial populations became isolated from one another.
The following image, based on marsupial genome research, gives some idea of the route taken;
The only part of this marathon journey that wasn't directly overland was the bit between North and South America, but this was only a very short distance, with an archipelago of islands linking the two, so it's not a stretch to imagine how this might have happened, most likely via small-scale rafting.
This image shows how the modern continents made up Gondwana (along with some of the fossils that provide us with evidence for their positions).
As Antarctica moved South, the marsupials died out, because it became too cold. They died out in Eurasia too, likely from competition with placental mammals. In South America and Australasia though, they persisted. Most of the South American marsupials died out when the land bridge formed between the Americas; this also explains how the marsupial Virginia Possum got where it did. But the Australasian species, with no pesky placentals to compete with, thrived and diverged. These ancestral populations eventually evolved into the wallabies and kangaroos that have been perplexing Portillo.
The ironic thing about this epic migration of land and species is that Australia has now moved far enough north that the marsupials are right on the edge of Asia; very nearly back where they began.
I know that you know this already, I just want to make the position clear for other readers.
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.
Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.
Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 32 of 226 (646050)
01-02-2012 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Granny Magda
01-02-2012 1:55 PM


Re: Gondwanaland, Wallace and biogeography
Hi Granny Magda,
Thanks for adding further to the story of Australia.
... But the Australasian species, with no pesky placentals to compete with, thrived and diverged. These ancestral populations eventually evolved into the wallabies and kangaroos that have been perplexing Portillo.
The ironic thing about this epic migration of land and species is that Australia has now moved far enough north that the marsupials are right on the edge of Asia; very nearly back where they began.
I know that you know this already, I just want to make the position clear for other readers.
The only footnote I would add, is that the modern marsupials on Australia all evolved after the separation, and isolation, of Australia.
This certainly does not answer the question of how koalas, for example, could get from a central ark landing site to Australia.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 226 (646051)
01-02-2012 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by RAZD
01-02-2012 2:16 PM


Re: Gondwanaland, Wallace and biogeography
Or from Australia to a Middle East Ark launching site so they could be on board to get dropped off after the Flud.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 34 of 226 (646055)
01-02-2012 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
12-30-2011 9:29 AM


Science answer: they evolved there.
Creationist answer: ? (careful - I've heard some doozies)
They evolved from a set of triassic mammals that lived on gondwana. The triassic mammals that remained on land that became asia evolved into the mammals that we see today. The triassic mammals that remained on land that became australia evolved into the marsupials that we see today.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 35 of 226 (646056)
01-02-2012 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by RAZD
01-02-2012 8:46 AM


Re: Gondwanaland, Wallace and biogeography
ZD writes:
I beg to differ.
GM writes:
There was no direct link between what we now call Asia and what we now call Australia, but there was, at one point, an more-or-less overland connection, via Gondwana. The marsupials took the looooong way around.
I stand corrected, I shouldn't have agreed that there was a land bridge, just an overland route. Thanks.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 36 of 226 (646084)
01-02-2012 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
01-02-2012 2:40 PM


Re: Gondwanaland, Wallace and biogeography
Hi jar,
Or from Australia to a Middle East Ark launching site so they could be on board to get dropped off after the Flud.
Could be, but the typical creationist explanation is (a) that pre-flood geology differed and/or (b) the animals came to Noah so he didn't have to round them up.
It is much more difficult to argue about leaving the ark being special conditions.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 01-02-2012 2:40 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 226 (646085)
01-02-2012 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
01-02-2012 9:42 PM


Re: Gondwanaland, Wallace and biogeography
Of course they can make up any crap they want to, but the fact is that there is lots of evidence of 'roos in Australia before there were people there and NO evidence of 'roos in the Middle East until there were Zoos.
Now if the 'roos came to the Ark it goes back to the questions I asked back in Message 8.
Did Noah build a boat and go get them?
Did the 'roos hop on water to come to the Middle East?
Maybe the God in the Biblical Flood Myths parted the Indian Ocean so that two pair (or seven pair) of 'roos could hop over to Thailand and up through Burma and India and Pakistan and Iran and Iraq?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 38 of 226 (646089)
01-02-2012 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by foreveryoung
01-02-2012 2:54 PM


science vs creationism
Hi foreveryoung, and welcome to the fray
They evolved from a set of triassic mammals that lived on gondwana. The triassic mammals that remained on land that became asia evolved into the mammals that we see today. The triassic mammals that remained on land that became australia evolved into the marsupials that we see today.
And North America and South America and Africa ...
That would be the scientific explanation, not a creationist explanation.
Message 330, New theory about evolution between creationism and evolution.: I am YEC but not like any that I have found so far on this forum. I have a wide range of possible ages for the earth but they are no older than a million years and no younger than 150,000 years. I believe in a global "flood", but I do not restrict its activity to massive amounts of rainfall as we see the phenomena today. I believe the great "flood" coincided with the Late Heavy Bombardment, and that the great flood of noah coincides with that periods characteristic total coverage of water. I know that was 3.9 billion years ago measured radiometrically, but I believe it happened much later than that due to accelerated radioactive decay.
The problem for you is that this doesn't make the scientific explanation work for your brand of creationism (which sounds a lot more like old earth creationism or gap creationism than YEC).
If you want to argue about the age of the earth, then I suggest you read and reply to Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 -- note that the issue of interest is the correlations between the various methods.
Science is consistent and there are a lot of cross-correlations between a number of different sciences.
If you think "... due to accelerated radioactive decay" is a viable argument, then you haven't really looked at the new problems you create that now need to be explained. See Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics?:
quote:
Many people in this debate are familiar with the "problem" of Polonium halos, however this thread is not about Polonium halos, and any further mention is off topic (see PRATT CF201: Polonium Halos). Anyone wanting to talk about Polonium halos is free to start their own thread, and not clutter this one up, thanks.
Where I am starting is from Dr Wiens:
Radiometric Dating
The basic radiohalo principle is simple: radioactivity produces alpha decay, and the alpha particle have a certain energy (usually measured in million electron volts, MeV) based on the familiar e=mc² formula and the conservation of energy/mass (see ref):
M1 = M2 + mp + e/c²
Thus when you have isotopes decaying into other isotopes by alpha decay, the energy of the alpha particle is unique to that decay stage because of the unique before and after mass of the decaying isotope and the constant mass of the alpha particle.
The halos require more than one particle to form as each one only makes a point on the ring. Thus uranium, with it's long half-life, takes "several hundred million years to form."
Now the fun part: this is based on our knowledge of physics and the physical constants that tell us how things behave in the universe, so what happens if you have fast decay instead of old time?
quote:
However, if the alpha has enough energy to surmount this barrier then it will regain that energy as electrostatic repulsion once it gets outside the range of the attractive strong nuclear force. One important consequence of this is that all alpha emissions have at least ~5 MeV energy. Furthermore, half-life is inversely related to decay energy.
(bold for empHASis)
Very simply put, if you change the decay rate, you change the decay energy, and the diameter of the halo changes.
There should be no characteristic uranium halos with the unique energy of uranium alpha decay from fast decay.
The existence of (common) uranium halos then is evidence that shows the physical constants have not changed while they were formed, and their formation in turn is evidence that the earth is old, at least several hundred million years old.
Rapid decay means no uranium halos, but uranium halos are common, therefore no rapic decay.
There are other problems, but uranium halos are objective empirical evidence that falsifies any hypothesis of rapid decay.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 39 of 226 (646093)
01-02-2012 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by RAZD
01-02-2012 10:20 PM


Re: science vs creationism
Fast decay kind of cooks the earth too.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 40 of 226 (646112)
01-03-2012 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coyote
01-02-2012 11:53 PM


rapid decay knock-down
Hi Coyote,
Fast decay kind of cooks the earth too.
Yep.
It also means that there would have been a large number of spontaneous natural reactors wherever uranium and other fissionable isotopes were found in the concentrations seen in the earth today: none of these deposits should exist, because they should have all gone through the melt-down sequence seen at Oklo:
http://oklo.curtin.edu.au/
quote:
This is one of the most fascinating stories in the relatively short history of Science and especially in the even shorter history of Nuclear Physics. In 1972 the very well preserved remains of several ancient natural nuclear reactors were discovered in the middle of the Oklo Uranium ore deposit.
Since their discovery the Oklo reactors have been studied by many scientists around the world who have uncovered the answers to the following questions.
  • Where are the Oklo reactors located?
  • When did the nuclear reactions occur?
  • What caused the nuclear reactions to start?
  • Why are these reactors worth studying?
  • Who discovered the reactors?
Here you can explore the answers to these and many other questions about the Oklo natural fossil reactors and investigate many other things about nuclear fission.
With more rapid decay, the critical mass would be smaller, and there would be many such reactions occurring with smaller concentrations of fissionable materials.
Curiously, the only evidence we have for such reactions is where there was sufficient fissionable mass to cause reactions the same as what we see in the world today.
Therefore rapid decay did not occur.
And, because of the byproducts of radioactive decay, and their relative amounts, we can date the Oklo reactors:
http://oklo.curtin.edu.au/when.cfm
quote:
Using a number of radioactive clocks the Oklo fossil reactors have been radioactively dated to be about 2000 million years old. The uranium in these reactors is thought to have come from the tiny amounts of uranium orginally scattered throughout the earth’s crustal rocks during its formation.
That's 2 billion years old.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 41 of 226 (646115)
01-03-2012 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
01-02-2012 9:49 PM


Gondwanaland before, current world after?
Hi again jar,
We are essentially arguing passed each other.
Of course they can make up any crap they want to, but the fact is that there is lots of evidence of 'roos in Australia before there were people there and NO evidence of 'roos in the Middle East until there were Zoos.
Now if the 'roos came to the Ark it goes back to the questions I asked back in Message 8.
Surely you are familiar with ICANT's gondwanaland pre-flood concept? No water\oceans to cross, plus the flood wipes out evidenceof travel to the ark site. Creationists can, have, and will shrug off these questions.
The problem that can't be shrugged off is how they get to their current locations from the ark.
And if the fossil evidence is from the gondwanaland time, then how do the species get to the specific land masses that have their ancestral fossils? Most curious.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 226 (646152)
01-03-2012 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by RAZD
01-03-2012 8:48 AM


Re: rapid decay knock-down
It also means that there would have been a large number of spontaneous natural reactors wherever uranium and other fissionable isotopes were found in the concentrations seen in the earth today:
I don't think this is correct.
Your post seems to confuse decay with fission. Speeding up decay does not necessarily mean creating a critical or super-critical natural reactor. In fact, producing a self sustaining fission reaction does not follow from having sped up nuclear processes.
What is required is that each neutrons produced by a fission reaction on average produce at least one new neutron from fission. This depends more on the physical arrangement and enrichment of the fissile material, and to a first order is independent of the rate at which absorbing a neutron causes an atom to split.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 43 of 226 (646232)
01-03-2012 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
01-03-2012 12:57 PM


Re: rapid decay knock-down
Hi NoNukes,
Sorry to have confused you.
I don't think this is correct.
Sadly, for you, opinion is incapable of altering reality.
Your post seems to confuse decay with fission. Speeding up decay does not necessarily mean creating a critical or super-critical natural reactor.
Curiously, critical mass is defined by the number of decay events within a given volume of radioactive material.
Critical mass - Wikipedia
quote:
A critical mass is the smallest amount of fissile material needed for a sustained nuclear chain reaction. The critical mass of a fissionable material depends upon its nuclear properties (e.g. the nuclear fission cross-section), its density, its shape, its enrichment, its purity, its temperature and its surroundings.
Changing the point of criticality
The point and therefore the mass where criticality occurs may be changed by modifying certain attributes such as fuel, shape, temperature, density and the installation of a neutron-reflective substance. These attributes have complex interactions and interdependencies. This section explains only the simplest ideal cases
• Varying the density of the mass
The higher the density, the lower the critical mass. ...
What is required is that each neutrons produced by a fission reaction on average produce at least one new neutron from fission. This depends more on the physical arrangement and enrichment of the fissile material, and to a first order is independent of the rate at which absorbing a neutron causes an atom to split.
Enrichment means increasing the density of decaying material.
Enriched uranium - Wikipedia
quote:
Enriched uranium is a kind of uranium in which the percent composition of uranium-235 has been increased through the process of isotope separation. ...
Slightly enriched uranium (SEU)
Slightly enriched uranium (SEU) has a 235U concentration of 0.9% to 2%. ...
In other words the density of 235U in the lowest category of enriched material used in reactors is a little more than double what it is in nature.
If your double the rate of radioactive decay, then that produces the same number of decay events in a given time period that would occur in twice the density of current fissionable isotopes compressed into half the current volume. It would be the same as enriching available ore to have twice the number of decay events.
Result: a two-fold effective density of radioactive material. Uranium ore with this density of fissionable material occurs in the world today. As such ore did not cause fission events similar to Oklo, then such doubling did not occur.
Curiously, to achieve anything close to a YEC model age, doubling the rate of radioactive decay is terribly insufficient: it would only mean reducing the age of the earth from 4.55 billion years to 2. 27 billion years.
Enjoy
Edited by Zen Deist, : clrty

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 44 of 226 (646280)
01-03-2012 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by RAZD
01-03-2012 6:03 PM


Re: rapid decay knock-down
Zen Deist writes:
Curiously, critical mass is defined by the number of decay events within a given volume of radioactive material.
Really. So why does your quote lists the variables that I mentioned? It does not support your position at all.
quote:
the mass where criticality occurs may be changed by modifying certain attributes such as fuel, shape, temperature, density and the installation of a neutron-reflective substance.
Enrichment and geometry. Just as I said. The purpose of the neutron reflective material, which I did not mention, is to return neutrons that escape the mass back to the fissile material. I would lump that in with geometry. Again, this supports my position.
Enrichment means increasing the density of decaying material.
That is not right. And it is not what your reference says. First, fission is not decay. Fission in a critical or super-critical reactor is generated primarily by the absorption of thermal (slow) neutrons by fissile material. Only the tiniest amount of neutrons are produced by spontaneous fission, which might be considered similar to decay. As long as the spontaneous fission rate is non-zero, and the geometry and enrichment are correct, then induced fission can occur and will dominate.
Enrichment means the ratio of fissile to non-fissile material.
As an analogy, consider that spontaneous fission, which can be likened to decay and might increase when the decay rate increases, is only the fuse for the chain reaction. It doesn't matter much how bright is the match that lights the fuse.
Here is how a chain reaction is produced in a natural or man made reactor. Some amount of spontaneous fission occurs, spontaneously producing neutrons fast neutrons. Each fission of U235, for example, produces 2.4+ fast neutrons. But only some of those neutrons in turn are slowed and cause fission. Depending on geometry, enrichment, the amount of neutron absorbing materials like carbon and hafnium, thermalizing material, and some other variables, only some of those neutrons get slowed down to thermal speed, and then engage new U235 nuclei causing fission. For at more complete description of the neutron life cycle see the wikipedia article on the six factor formula.
Six factor formula - Wikipedia
As long as about 42 percent or more of those 2.4+ neutrons in turn produce induced fissions of U235, then an upward ramping chain reaction is produced. It scarcely matters exactly what the the reaction rate of spontaneous fission rate is, because of the multiplying effect caused by the chain reaction, at least approximately so.
What does matter is how many neutrons escape or or absorbed without producing fission. And that depends primarily on geometry and enrichment. Not on the decay rate.
ABE: by "how many", I mean how many escape or are absorbed as a percentage of those neutrons produced. Doubling the spontaneously produced neutrons doubles the number of neutrons that escape, thus maintaining a non-critical neutron life cycle.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

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saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 45 of 226 (646294)
01-04-2012 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Adequate
12-30-2011 1:57 PM


Re: About boats...
A local creationist suggested (in all honesty I think) that God used whirlwinds and angels to carry the animals from one place to another. Apparently that applied in both collecting and then depositing the creatures. He even tried to make jetwinds suit his way of thinking.
Even though I am taught to be polite and respect everyone regardless of their agenda, it is extremely difficult to show any to cretins. At best they are mislead and delusional and at worst lying maniacs. Not much positivity there.

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