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Author Topic:   Well this is awkward... Used to be a YEC
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 166 of 358 (646133)
01-03-2012 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Straggler
01-03-2012 10:42 AM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
Good question, also a massive question mate, including the problem of evil, dissecting the different religions etc......I made a topic for "good designs", your question is a vast one, so I could only talk/explain about good designs. But look at some other topics, I have hit on some of the differences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 01-03-2012 10:42 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Straggler, posted 01-03-2012 11:05 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 167 of 358 (646134)
01-03-2012 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 10:58 AM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
Well let's put aside wider questions like good and evil etc. Let's just focus on the design question posed in this thread.
You say good design is indicative of a designer. So what sort of bad design would be present in the absence of such a designer?
Do you think (for example) the human body is an example of good design? What would a badly designed (or undesigned) equivalent look like?
What would the world look like if there was no intelligent design in your view?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 10:58 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 168 of 358 (646135)
01-03-2012 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 10:56 AM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
Again Mike, you simply misrepresent my position.
I start with the evidence that life exists.
I have no position on whether or not there is some designer.
I look at the evidence.
The evidence shows natural causes.
So far not one single un-natural cause has ever been found.
If you present evidence of some un-natural cause then I will consider that evidence and if the evidence for your un-natural cause is sufficient then I will change my position.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 10:56 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(3)
Message 169 of 358 (646136)
01-03-2012 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Buzsaw
01-03-2012 8:16 AM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
Buzsaw writes:
That's why science loves relativity and quantum. That's why science shuns logic, common sense and objectivity. Too many whys remain un-asked and un-told by science.
For examples, science sweeps under the rug, the whys of the zero/singularity event, the whys of before space/time existed, the logics of how life, managed to manage biogenesis through the early stages of emergence from chaotic soup to amazingly complex life systems, the whys of the fact that all recorded historical cultures have been religious, the whys their assumption of uniformitarion expansion all the way down through the billions of alleged years from the alleged singularity, the whys of the alleged extension of all dinosaurs, all the while, the survival of the other species, etc, etc, etc.........
The difference between a scientific approach to reality and yours, Buzsaw, is that scientists will certainly ask questions about things that are unknown, but until they have good answers, they will say "we don't yet know or understand such and such". They will make all the observations they can, they will hypothesise, they will try to extend their knowledge but, unlike you, they will not make up subjective, emotion-based, desire-filled, fantasy answers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Buzsaw, posted 01-03-2012 8:16 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 170 of 358 (646141)
01-03-2012 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by mike the wiz
01-03-2012 10:51 AM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
You have all this the wrong way around. Science - and particularly ToE - says nothing at all about God or creation. It does not have an atheistic position that it's trying to prove. It's only concerned with how organisms have changed over time. It looks at the evidence it finds in nature and forms conclusions that can be tested.
The scientists that originally examined Darwin's hypothesis were creationists themselves, it took many years to be generally accepted as a scientific fact - it won through very much against the prevailing wisdom and beliefs of the times.
Science should stick to what it can prove, not what it can't in the least.
It should and it does exactly that. Any scientist tried to do anything else he'd be laughed out of the profession.
Now breathing in oxygen and out carbon dioxide, that's fine, science can handle that as such things are factually experimentally shown to be parsimonious without God, they are not show to be caused without God.
I'm afraid you can't pick and choose the bits of science you like and restrict scientists to those - it just doesn't work that way.....You never know, by studying the things you feel uncomfortable about they may even prove you right.

Life, don't talk to me about life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 10:51 AM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 171 of 358 (646243)
01-03-2012 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Tangle
01-03-2012 11:52 AM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
You have all this the wrong way around. Science - and particularly ToE - says nothing at all about God or creation. It does not have an atheistic position that it's trying to prove
I wouldn't limit this to particularly the theory of evolution. Geologists, astronomers, paleontologists, electrical engineers, as well as biologists as a group have no goals directed towards saying anything about God. The idea that that the typical scientist isn't just trying to do their his or her job of finding oil, trying to make semiconductor devices work, studying the cosmos, etc. seems akin to paranoia to me.
It's not science's fault or issue that a sizeable minority of people hold contrary, unscientific religious beliefs. If science fails to be neutral to religion, it is in the same way that journalists are not neutral to astrology when they report events that are contrary to horoscopes.
I wonder what the non-quantum theory, religion friendly explanation for how zener diodes and transistor devices work might be, and when we might see new semiconductor devices that use the principle behind this explanation.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 01-03-2012 11:52 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Rahvin, posted 01-03-2012 8:14 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 172 of 358 (646249)
01-03-2012 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by NoNukes
01-03-2012 7:44 PM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
It's not science's fault or issue that a sizeable minority of people hold contrary, unscientific religious beliefs.
Your optimism vastly exceeds my own.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by NoNukes, posted 01-03-2012 7:44 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 358 (646267)
01-03-2012 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by bluegenes
01-03-2012 11:16 AM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
bluegenes writes:
Buzsaw writes:
quote:
That's why science loves relativity and quantum. That's why science shuns logic, common sense and objectivity. Too many whys remain un-asked and un-told by science.
For examples, science sweeps under the rug, the whys of the zero/singularity event, the whys of before space/time existed, the logics of how life, managed to manage biogenesis through the early stages of emergence from chaotic soup to amazingly complex life systems, the whys of the fact that all recorded historical cultures have been religious, the whys their assumption of uniformitarion expansion all the way down through the billions of alleged years from the alleged singularity, the whys of the alleged extension of all dinosaurs, all the while, the survival of the other species, etc, etc, etc.........
The difference between a scientific approach to reality and yours, Buzsaw, is that scientists will certainly ask questions about things that are unknown, but until they have good answers, they will say "we don't yet know or understand such and such". They will make all the observations they can, they will hypothesise, they will try to extend their knowledge but, unlike you, they will not make up subjective, emotion-based, desire-filled, fantasy answers.
Like science's reluctance to falsify cited research and evidence of the Exodus crossing? Like science's reluctance to any consideration of observable fulfilled ancient Biblical prophecies relative to ID? Like science's aversion towards asking questions or studies on anything depicting what is considered on tiny planet earth as the supernatural
What is invisible to humans and considered supernatural by tiny earthlings, is likely common in the Universe at large. The evidence of some phenomena observable on earth attests to the need for science to extend the scope of their research.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

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Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 01-03-2012 9:19 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 176 by Omnivorous, posted 01-03-2012 9:54 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 184 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2012 1:51 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 174 of 358 (646270)
01-03-2012 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Buzsaw
01-03-2012 9:16 PM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
Please provide a link to a post where you presented any evidence of any Exodus crossing.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Buzsaw, posted 01-03-2012 9:16 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 175 of 358 (646274)
01-03-2012 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Buzsaw
01-03-2012 8:16 AM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
Not to join the pile-up, but I'm always surprised by people who claim that science doesn't have an explanation for something, when its obvious that the scope and boundaries of science is something they have no knowledge of.
Buz, are you sure that science makes no study of the Big Bang singularity? Are you aware that the Large Hadron Collider exists to study that exact phenomenon? Are you sure that there's no scientific study of abiogenesis? Any freshman text on genetics written since 2003 should make mention of the "RNA world" model which explains how you can bootstrap evolutionary genetics with RNA, which we now know has both the self-replicating properties of DNA and the enzymatic activity of proteins.
the whys of the alleged extension of all dinosaurs
"Extension" of the dinosaurs? Did you mean "extinction"? And why do you think that science doesn't grapple with the extinction of the dinosaurs? The Alverezes (father and son) famously proposed that an asteroid impact devastated the Earth's biosphere, causing the extinction of megafaunal species. This proposal was supported by the high concentrations of extraterrestrial iridium in K-T sediments, and was ultimately confirmed by the discovery of the Chicxulub impact crater.
So, again - are these things that science has no explanation for, or are these things that science has explanations for that you just hadn't heard about? What's your science background, Buz? What classes have you taken? Or are you just trying to wing it based on creationist books you've read and what we've patiently tried to explain to you over the years?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Buzsaw, posted 01-03-2012 8:16 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Buzsaw, posted 01-04-2012 12:15 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 176 of 358 (646277)
01-03-2012 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Buzsaw
01-03-2012 9:16 PM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
Buz writes:
Like science's aversion towards asking questions or studies on anything depicting what is considered on tiny planet earth as the supernatural
I'd dearly love to study supernatural things on this tiny li'l planet.
Could you show me some?

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Buzsaw, posted 01-03-2012 9:16 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 358 (646279)
01-03-2012 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Rahvin
01-03-2012 8:14 PM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
It's not science's fault or issue that a sizeable minority of people hold contrary, unscientific religious beliefs.
Your optimism vastly exceeds my own.[/qs]
While many people hold unscientific beliefs, only a few special people believe that quantum mechanics is a conspiracy against God.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 358 (646282)
01-04-2012 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by crashfrog
01-03-2012 9:41 PM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
crashfrog writes:
Not to join the pile-up, but I'm always surprised by people who claim that science doesn't have an explanation for something, when its obvious that the scope and boundaries of science is something they have no knowledge of.
Buz, are you sure that science makes no study of the Big Bang singularity? Are you aware that the Large Hadron Collider exists to study that exact phenomenon? Are you sure that there's no scientific study of abiogenesis? Any freshman text on genetics written since 2003 should make mention of the "RNA world" model which explains how you can bootstrap evolutionary genetics with RNA, which we now know has both the self-replicating properties of DNA and the enzymatic activity of proteins.
the whys of the alleged extension of all dinosaurs
"Extension" of the dinosaurs? Did you mean "extinction"? And why do you think that science doesn't grapple with the extinction of the dinosaurs? The Alverezes (father and son) famously proposed that an asteroid impact devastated the Earth's biosphere, causing the extinction of megafaunal species. This proposal was supported by the high concentrations of extraterrestrial iridium in K-T sediments, and was ultimately confirmed by the discovery of the Chicxulub impact crater.
So, again - are these things that science has no explanation for, or are these things that science has explanations for that you just hadn't heard about? What's your science background, Buz? What classes have you taken? Or are you just trying to wing it based on creationist books you've read and what we've patiently tried to explain to you over the years?
Studies, studies and more studies, relativity, quantum theory, uniformity assumptions. That's it for science. That's where the money, the peers and the secularism is.
The logic, the common sense, the the real here and now observable, the cultural the recorded historical, etc all attest to supportive evidence of an intelligent designer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by crashfrog, posted 01-03-2012 9:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by DrJones*, posted 01-04-2012 12:44 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 181 by Coyote, posted 01-04-2012 12:47 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 188 by crashfrog, posted 01-04-2012 9:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 190 by Larni, posted 01-04-2012 9:38 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 358 (646283)
01-04-2012 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Omnivorous
01-03-2012 9:54 PM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
Omnivorous writes:
I'd dearly love to study supernatural things on this tiny li'l planet.
Could you show me some?
Go to the archives. I've been showing real time observable supportive evidence for over 8 years what secularistic minded scientists ignore. Go read and figure. I can lead you to the water but I can't make you drink.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Omnivorous, posted 01-03-2012 9:54 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


(3)
Message 180 of 358 (646284)
01-04-2012 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Buzsaw
01-04-2012 12:15 AM


Re: Unanswered Whys Of Science
Studies, studies and more studies, relativity, quantum theory, uniformity assumptions. That's it for science. That's where the money, the peers and the secularism is.
Its where the results are Buz. Science sent us to The Moon, gave us multiple technologies and advances. Your "intelligent designer" didn't produce the internet, science did.

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Buzsaw, posted 01-04-2012 12:15 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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