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Author Topic:   Austerity measures have they ever saved an economy?
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4968
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 136 of 168 (649402)
01-23-2012 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Straggler
01-22-2012 3:26 PM


Re: "Knowledge Economy"
The problem with that, as I see it, is that even these high qualification high skill roles can increasingly be done by people in countries such as India and China for considerably less money.

I agree. Certainly programming, engineering consulting, and some legal work are currently being out sourced to India to the disappointement of many people who are employed in these areas. But the characterization of these jobs is manufacturing or service is secondary. I hope I haven't disrailed the discussion.

Crashfrog's characterization still irks me though...

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Straggler, posted 01-22-2012 3:26 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by crashfrog, posted 01-23-2012 3:12 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Jon
Member
Posts: 3951
From: Minnesota, U.S.A.
Joined: 12-29-2005


Message 137 of 168 (649437)
01-23-2012 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by NoNukes
01-23-2012 9:03 AM


Re: Service Jobs
You said that non-exportable service jobs were a problem because their non-exportable nature creates a trade imbalance.

I never said there was a problem with service jobs. What I said was "building an economy on top of a very large service sector, relying on jobs that are mostly not exportable (at least not reasonably with available technologies) runs the risk of a trade deficit" (Message 133) and that "there are some pretty serious and lasting impacts on an economy and its people when the primary form of employment shifts to service jobs and away from manufacturing and agricultural/extraction jobs" (Message 121).

The trade imbalance was created by the jobs, service or otherwise, that were exported, and not by the jobs that remain here.

Which is what I've said.

I'm asking that you explain how the non-exportability of service jobs creates a trade imbalance.

Their non-exportability doesn't cause the imbalance, it just makes it worse, because so long as we are primarily engaged in the production of non-exportable services, we can never hope to regain the balance and settle the trade deficit.

The problem is that our economy has been moving away from the production of exportable goods in favor of the production of non-exportable services; and this, obviously, runs the risk of creating a trade deficit.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by NoNukes, posted 01-23-2012 9:03 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 01-23-2012 10:43 AM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4968
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 138 of 168 (649440)
01-23-2012 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Jon
01-23-2012 10:35 AM


Re: Service Jobs
Yes, you did say those things, but you also said this:

...as convenient as it is that many service jobs cannot be offshored, it is also inconvenient that service jobs cannot be exported.

I'm asking you to describe how it would be more convenient if service jobs could be exported. But getting you to do so seems to be impossible.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Jon, posted 01-23-2012 10:35 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Jon, posted 01-23-2012 11:26 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Jon
Member
Posts: 3951
From: Minnesota, U.S.A.
Joined: 12-29-2005


Message 139 of 168 (649442)
01-23-2012 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by NoNukes
01-23-2012 10:43 AM


Re: Service Jobs
I'm asking you to describe how it would be more convenient if service jobs could be exported.

I thought that was pretty obvious in what I said, but I'll repeat myself and then explain myself:

quote:
Jon in Message 137:

Their non-exportability doesn't cause the imbalance, it just makes it worse, because so long as we are primarily engaged in the production of non-exportable services, we can never hope to regain the balance and settle the trade deficit.


The products of non-exportable service jobs (services) cannot be exported to offset a trade imbalance. So as nice as it is that we don't soon have to worry about retail clerk positions being outsourced, it is also a bummer that we cannot export their product to settle the deficit.

On a further note, I'd argue that running a trade deficit is more detrimental than the comfort of knowing certain jobs cannot be outsourced, since goods are at the heart of meaningful economic transactions, not services.

Man cannot live on legal advice alone!

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 01-23-2012 10:43 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 01-23-2012 4:38 PM Jon has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 168 (649463)
01-23-2012 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by NoNukes
01-23-2012 3:59 AM


Re: I can't get no satisfaction
And here you repeat the mistake that you deny ever making. You are attempting to make the classification of service vs. manufacturing a proxy for what jobs are non-exportable vs exportable by using a ridiculous definition for service jobs.

I don't see any place where I've attempted to make any classification of what is a service job and what is a manufacturing job. How are you not getting this? You're the one trying to find the bright line between manufacturing and service. I'm the one telling you that there's no such line in a world where mass-producing an iPhone and mass-producing a taco are almost the same job.

You're simply lying about my position, Nukes, in the best tradition of the practice of law.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by NoNukes, posted 01-23-2012 3:59 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 168 (649465)
01-23-2012 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by NoNukes
01-23-2012 9:11 AM


Re: "Knowledge Economy"
Crashfrog's characterization still irks me though...

You can take your "irked" and eat a bowl of salty dicks with it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by NoNukes, posted 01-23-2012 9:11 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4968
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 142 of 168 (649474)
01-23-2012 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Jon
01-23-2012 11:26 AM


Re: Service Jobs
The products of non-exportable service jobs (services) cannot be exported to offset a trade imbalance. So as nice as it is that we don't soon have to worry about retail clerk positions being outsourced, it is also a bummer that we cannot export their product to settle the deficit.

Jon, this makes no sense to me. Let's use grocery bagging as an example, non-exportable service job. The output of grocery bagging is a bunch of bagged groceries that belong to the person who purchased them. The energy is supplied by the baggers labor.

Even if it were possible to export bagging to other countries, who outside of this country would want to pay a US bagger $7.25 or more an hour?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Jon, posted 01-23-2012 11:26 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Perdition, posted 01-23-2012 4:47 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 144 by Jon, posted 01-23-2012 8:16 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 251 days)
Posts: 1592
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 143 of 168 (649475)
01-23-2012 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by NoNukes
01-23-2012 4:38 PM


Re: Service Jobs
I think what Jon is trying to say, though he's not articulating it very well, is that the service jobs we do in theis country that are "un-offshorable" do not produce anything that can be sold overseas.

The off-shorable jobs, like manufacturing and mining and such, produce goods that can then be sold back to America. This creates a trade deficit.

The point that Jon seems to be overlooking is that much of the jobs being sent over seas are still owned by American companies, so they don't technically contribute to a trade deficit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 01-23-2012 4:38 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Jon, posted 01-23-2012 8:31 PM Perdition has responded
 Message 147 by NoNukes, posted 01-24-2012 7:33 AM Perdition has responded

    
Jon
Member
Posts: 3951
From: Minnesota, U.S.A.
Joined: 12-29-2005


Message 144 of 168 (649508)
01-23-2012 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by NoNukes
01-23-2012 4:38 PM


Re: Service Jobs
Even if it were possible to export bagging to other countries, who outside of this country would want to pay a US bagger $7.25 or more an hour?

That's an additional point beyond the one I am making, which is that the very nature of many services makes them difficult to export.

But apparently I haven't been articulating it very well, so hopefully Perdition's explanation will be of some help.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by NoNukes, posted 01-23-2012 4:38 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Member
Posts: 3951
From: Minnesota, U.S.A.
Joined: 12-29-2005


Message 145 of 168 (649510)
01-23-2012 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Perdition
01-23-2012 4:47 PM


Re: Service Jobs
The point that Jon seems to be overlooking is that much of the jobs being sent over seas are still owned by American companies, so they don't technically contribute to a trade deficit.

What the hell is this, then?

Or this (blue = service)?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Perdition, posted 01-23-2012 4:47 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by NoNukes, posted 01-24-2012 7:41 AM Jon has responded
 Message 149 by NoNukes, posted 01-24-2012 7:42 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply
 Message 151 by Perdition, posted 01-24-2012 10:15 AM Jon has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 2788
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 146 of 168 (649524)
01-23-2012 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Straggler
01-23-2012 8:40 AM


Re: "Knowledge Economy"
Uh. No. I am not. I am talking about support programers. I am in I/T person that deals with networking, and often I have to deal with the application support people that use the network for their job. I am NOT talking support center people.

I also have to deal with operations that have been off shored to Brazil. Initially, they were reasonable, but the tern over was very high, and every 'incarnation' of operations lost technical skill so they are horrible now.

The folks in Argentina are good, and managed to keep their skill level up.. at least the ones i deal with. They don't have the turn over ratio from the ones in India, China, Russia , or Brazil. I am hoping the folks in China get better trained and can actually mange the job.. but I am not holding my breath... the knowledge base for training them properly has evaporated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Straggler, posted 01-23-2012 8:40 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4968
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 147 of 168 (649542)
01-24-2012 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Perdition
01-23-2012 4:47 PM


Re: Service Jobs
I think what Jon is trying to say, though he's not articulating it very well, is that the service jobs we do in theis country that are "un-offshorable" do not produce anything that can be sold overseas.

Isn't it a bit silly to complain about that? Those jobs exists because we require them to be performed. The jobs that produce things that can be sold overseas are surely also exportable. So it occurs to me that the blaming anything but exportable jobs for the trade balance is without merit.

Surely Jon meant something else.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Perdition, posted 01-23-2012 4:47 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Perdition, posted 01-24-2012 10:08 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4968
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 148 of 168 (649543)
01-24-2012 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Jon
01-23-2012 8:31 PM


Re: Service Jobs
Nobody is arguing that there is no growing trade imbalance. What I am questioning is your analysis of the cause, and your nice maps and graphs don't shed any light on that. All that's necessary for a trade imbalance is we keep buying goods elsewhere, but elsewhere isn't buying our stuff for one reason or another.

I don't think it makes sense to blame jobs that inherently cannot produce anything exportable, yet must be done. The blame lies elsewhere. Yes, we have to clean our own streets, but isn't a bit silly to say that the fact that U.S. street cleaners' efforts cannot clean the streets in China is adding to the trade imbalance.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Jon, posted 01-23-2012 8:31 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Jon, posted 01-24-2012 10:15 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4968
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 149 of 168 (649544)
01-24-2012 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Jon
01-23-2012 8:31 PM


Re: Service Jobs
Nobody is arguing that there is no growing trade imbalance. What I am questioning is your analysis of the cause, and your nice maps and graphs don't shed any light on that. All that's necessary for a trade imbalance is we keep buying goods elsewhere, but elsewhere isn't buying our stuff for one reason or another.

I don't think it makes sense to blame jobs that inherently cannot produce anything exportable, yet must be done. The blame lies elsewhere. Yes, we have to clean our own streets, but isn't a bit silly to say that the fact that U.S. street cleaners' efforts cannot clean the streets in China is adding to the trade imbalance.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. The proper place to-day, the only place which Massachusetts has provided for her freer and less desponding spirits, is in her prisons, to be put out and locked out of the State by her own act, as they have already put themselves out by their principles. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Jon, posted 01-23-2012 8:31 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 251 days)
Posts: 1592
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 150 of 168 (649553)
01-24-2012 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by NoNukes
01-24-2012 7:33 AM


Re: Service Jobs
The jobs that produce things that can be sold overseas are surely also exportable.

Yes, and these are the jobs we're losing overseas. Leaving us with only jobs that don't produce anything that can be sold overseas. Which creates a trade deficit.

Those jobs exists because we require them to be performed.

Yes, the jobs are required, but if everyone is a hairdresser, a burger flipper, or a yoga instructor, we're left with jobs that are only useful for those in the immediate area, and cannot produce anything to be sold overseas.

These jobs were necessary 20 years ago, too, but we also had manufacturing and other jobs that allowed us to sell things overseas rather than having to import everything we want to buy now.

So it occurs to me that the blaming anything but exportable jobs for the trade balance is without merit.

I believe that's exactly what Jon is blaming. Jobs that can be exported are the ones that allowed us to have trade goods. Now that they're exported, we no longer have trade goods, leaving us with jobs that don't produce anything to sell overseas. The very reason they can't be exported is the same reason they make nothing we can trade.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by NoNukes, posted 01-24-2012 7:33 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
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