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Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: When does human life begin? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The question is whether what you feel should have any bearing on the issues of when life begins or whether or not someone other than you has an abortion?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 829 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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I am truly saddened when a woman miscarries... Did you even read the text you quoted? Let me rehash the important bit:
quote: How can you be "saddened" if no one knows she miscarried? Hell, just because she takes a morning after pill doesn't even mean there was something "there" the morning after.
For me life has begun when the Lord says it has begun. The moment you bring your deity/belief/religion into the discussion is the moment you remove yourself from dictating what other people do. You are free to have an opinion on the matter and use your belief to base that opinion, but that opinion holds no weight with anyone other than yourself or perhaps others who hold that same belief. Oddly enough, different people, believing in the same "lord" as you, reading from the same book, will say life begins at a different time than you do. What does that say about the validity of this "lord" of yours in determining when life begins?Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
shadow71 writes:
No, you evidently don't.Do I understand that your postion is that human life begins over the first few years after birth? I think I was clear enough. Moral agency develops over the first few year. "Human life" is too broad a term to be definable or to be useful.Jesus was a liberal hippie
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Straggler writes: What do you think? Numbers writes: I think that is the bees knees. Profound. The thread asks - "When does human life begin?" It seems that your thinking on this issue is somewhat conflicted and very definitely confused. It has (according to you) something to do with cellular reproduction. And (according to you) something to do with brain development. But quite what, or how these things are related or reconciled, is anybodies guess. Including, I suspect, your own.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1531 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Straggler, If you go back to where my post to Perdition began, and follow to where Perdition in a aside stated that life reproducing can not be the only criteria, using the sperm and egg as a example of them being both "alive". And" reproduce is all they essentially do." I then retorted that yes they are alive, however they are only alive long enough to accomplish a mission.
But they're existence is contingent on the host organism. I then went on to defend my use one of the criteria of life as (reproduction) as that definition is used in biology, This banter went back and forth until you chimed in that using reproduction in defining life is" silly". I then responded with "what taxa of organisms do not reproduce?" To which you responded with" infertile males and prepubesants," who are quite certainly alive. To which I responded with citing my use of the term reproducing in describing "Life" and pointing out that infertile organisms still reproduce they're cells. To which you conflate cellular reproduction with a cancer and zygote. To which I conflate a tumor with zygote and a zygote with a penis. All the while the main point was made at the beginning of answering Perdition. That imo human life begins with when a woman becomes pregnant and the brain develops. So who again is confused? What in that is irreconcilable? "Me thinks thou dost protest to much."
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So - In summary - You define life as that which can reproduce cells but you define human life specifically as that which has a sufficiently developed brain?
Numbers writes: That imo human life begins with when a woman becomes pregnant and the brain develops. So who again is confused? What in that is irreconcilable? "Me thinks thou dost protest to much." I'm only protesting at the conflicting ambiguities of your different criteria. How do we identify this stage where a brain has been sufficiently "developed" for you to consider the cells in question as qualifying for human life? And if brain development is your criteria why are you defining anything at all remotely relevant to this thread in terms of ability to reproduce cells?
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1531 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
I think, not sure. You are hung up on the initial mention of one of the criteria used to describe and define life as: "The ability to reproduce." This dragged the thread off topic. My bad. Perdition and I were content to banter the point.
It was where Straggler interjected, that Straggler misconstrued the previous discourse. Which is fine as long as you realize I was not defining the inception of human life with it's ability to reproduce.
How do we identify this stage where a brain has been sufficiently "developed" for you to consider the cells in question as qualifying for human life? The 24-28th week.
And if brain development is your criteria why are you defining anything at all remotely relevant to this thread in terms of ability to reproduce cells? Because you started fucking with me.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Numbers writes: Which is fine as long as you realize I was not defining the inception of human life with it's ability to reproduce. Then what are you defining in terms of the ability to reproduce and what possible relevance does it have to this thread?
Straggler writes: How do we identify this stage where a brain has been sufficiently "developed" for you to consider the cells in question as qualifying for human life? Numbers writes: The 24-28th week. OK. But that isn't "how". That is "when". What is it about the brain of a 24-28 week old foetus that qualifies it for human life? I'm not even disagreeing with you here. Just trying to clarify what the hell it is you are actually getting at.
Straggler writes: And if brain development is your criteria why are you defining anything at all remotely relevant to this thread in terms of ability to reproduce cells? Numbers writes: Because you started fucking with me. I started "fucking with" you because you were making statements about the ability to reprodeuce cells that were either idiotic or irrelevant in this thread context. You have plumped for irrelevant which is probably the more justfiable of the two options.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
hooah writes: How can you be "saddened" if no one knows she miscarried? Hell, just because she takes a morning after pill doesn't even mean there was something "there" the morning after. What saddens me is the intent of the woman who took the morning pill in full knowledge that it will abort the baby developing in her womb. Why would she take the pill if she doesn't want to abort? hooah writes: Did you ever consider that your opinions hold no weight with anyone other than the people that hold your opinion. Pretty lame analogy if you ask me. What your are saying is that my opinions if based on my beliefs are inferior to your opinions that are based upon your beliefs. The moment you bring your deity/belief/religion into the discussion is the moment you remove yourself from dictating what other people do. You are free to have an opinion on the matter and use your belief to base that opinion, but that opinion holds no weight with anyone other than yourself or perhaps others who hold that same belief. Oddly enough, different people, believing in the same "lord" as you, reading from the same book, will say life begins at a different time than you do. What does that say about the validity of this "lord" of yours in determining when life begins? Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
nwr writes:
I think I was clear enough. Moral agency develops over the first few year. "Human life" is too broad a term to be definable or to be useful. Could you possibly define "moral agency" for me. I am of the opinion that human life at some point begins. Do you deny that propostion?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Your entire position in this thread depends upon there being a "point" when human life begins. But you still cannot tell us when exactly it is that you think it is that human "life begins"......
Shad writes: Yes I believe in the existence of a soul. I think it is implanted in a human being when life begins. How are you identifying the beginning of life on which your position depends? If I look at 2 egg-sperm combinations, one of which meets your criteria of a life and one of which doesn't, how can I tell which is which?
Shad writes: What saddens me is the intent of the woman who took the morning pill in full knowledge that it will abort the baby developing in her womb. Is a zygote a "baby".....? If a "baby" is a human being with personhood then you are making a lot of evidentially unjustifaible assumptions.
Shad writes: Did you ever consider that your opinions hold no weight with anyone other than the people that hold your opinion. OK. If nobodies un-evidenced opinion alone should carry any weight then on what criteria do we base the judgements related to abortion upon? Are there any criteria that we can agree upon to attribute personhood to something and if so what are they? Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Shad writes: I am of the opinion that human life at some point begins. When is that point? Be specific. Your entire position depends upon this "point" existing.
Shad writes: Do you deny that propostion? Yes. There is no 'point'.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 829 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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What saddens me is the intent of the woman who took the morning pill in full knowledge that it will abort the baby developing in her womb. There is no "baby developing in her womb" the morning after sex. You do know what a baby is, don't you? I'm glad you aren't addressing the meat of anything I reply to you, but rather snippets of shit that aren't furthering the discussion.
Why would she take the pill if she doesn't want to abort? REALLY???? Do you even know what the morning after pill is? How can you expect to have this discussion on an adult level if you don't even understand that the morning after pill is not an abortion?????
What your are saying is that my opinions if based on my beliefs are inferior to your opinions that are based upon your beliefs. I don't have "beliefs". I have facts I accept based on evidence, reason and the scienctific method. You, on the other hand, have beliefs and those beliefs are archaic and based on ancient tribal myths, holding no value in today's society.Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Abortion is not the topic.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 762 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined:
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For me life has begun when the Lord says it has begun. But He seems a little vague on that subject. One place that gets close to an opinion is Exodus 21:22 : "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." That sure appears to treat the loss of a fetus as a purely civil matter, "fixed" by a monetary payment, and not as a manslaughter or infanticide. If you know of a place in the Bible where this Lord fellow says plainly when life begins, tell me: I'd be interested to see it. I don't think it's in there. The Catholic Church, at least, seems to regard attempts to prevent sperm and ova from meeting up with each other as approximately same level of immorality as taking Plan B or having an abortion at eight weeks. What does that say about what they call "when life begins?" I say it's incomprehensible. Edited by Coragyps, : fix tag
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