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Author Topic:   Whine & Cheese
Phat
Member
Posts: 7345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 121 of 181 (650445)
01-31-2012 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
01-31-2012 9:07 AM


Re: Putting things in perspective
You do know that debt and budget are two different things don't you?
Yes. Deficit and debt are also two different things.

My point is that we are already in too deep. Even if we eliminated the yearly deficit,(1.5 trillion most recently) and paid 500 billion towards reducing the debt, we would have to do both of these things for fifty years in a row.

It aint gonna happen that way. We likely will inflate the debt away.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 01-31-2012 9:07 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 01-31-2012 12:36 PM Phat has responded
 Message 125 by crashfrog, posted 01-31-2012 1:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 128 by nwr, posted 01-31-2012 5:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24664
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 122 of 181 (650446)
01-31-2012 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
01-31-2012 12:34 PM


Re: Putting things in perspective
Do you understand what "inflate the debt away" means?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 12:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 12:45 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 7345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 123 of 181 (650449)
01-31-2012 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
01-31-2012 12:36 PM


Re: Putting things in perspective
jar writes:

Do you understand what "inflate the debt away" means?

Not entirely. I searched and found this from The Economist Magazine....(in a blog)Repress, then inflate and it appears that people agree that it wouldn't be easy and likely would destroy much of the savings of private citizens.

Its a lot easier to suffer all at once and get it over with than it is to pay a debt for fifty years.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 01-31-2012 12:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 01-31-2012 12:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24664
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 124 of 181 (650452)
01-31-2012 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Phat
01-31-2012 12:45 PM


Re: Putting things in perspective
Yet from today's news:

quote:
The $1.1 trillion deficit is the smallest deficit figure both in nominal terms and as a percentage of the economy since the Great Recession.

Neither the debt or the deficit are really major problems. The problem is we continue to fail to invest and spend ********.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 12:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 125 of 181 (650454)
01-31-2012 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
01-31-2012 12:34 PM


Re: Putting things in perspective
Let's test your comprehension of government-scale finance issues.

My point is that we are already in too deep.

In too deep to who? Please be specific. Please note that if your answer is "the Chinese", you should be aware that for every dollar of US debt owned by foreign companies, we own 82 cents in foreign debt. If I owe you ten dollars and you owe me eight, how much money do I actually owe you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 12:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9944
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 126 of 181 (650456)
01-31-2012 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
01-31-2012 7:46 AM


Re: Putting things in perspective
I am far from an expert in US economics but I am pretty sure that your "facts" are not quite as you are interpreting them.

Phat writes:

1) We borrow 42 cents of every dollar.

As I understand the numbers the US government currently borrows about 40 cents of every dollar it spends. That is what the deficit is. Is that what you meant?

I think everyone agrees that the deficit needs to be reduced. But many, including I, would argue that taking extreme austerity measures to do so in the midst of a recession (or near recession) is counterproductive.

Phat writes:

2) Even if every citizen were taxed at 100%, it wouldn't balance the budget.

I think this is a conflation of deficit with debt. With some very rough figures - Personal income in the US is about 13 Trillion per year. The budget deficit is about 1.3 Trillion. The national debt is about 14 Trillion.

So if you taxed everyone 100% for a year (ignoring the other consequences of that) you wouldn't clear the overall debt. Is that what you meant?

In general national debt should be looked at more like a long term mortgage than something that needs immediate payment. You wouldn't worry that you cannot pay a 140,000 dollar mortgage with a 130,000 dollar yearly income would you?

I don't think the facts you cite are as scary as they first seem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 7:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 01-31-2012 4:38 PM Straggler has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 181 (650496)
01-31-2012 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Straggler
01-31-2012 2:17 PM


Re: Putting things in perspective
I think everyone agrees that the deficit needs to be reduced.

There's only a deficit because, every year, Congress arranges that there be one:

If Congress decides to sit on its hands in 2012, there will be almost no deficit in 2013. Under the law there's no budget deficit; Congress keeps changing the laws for that year to extend tax cuts and enact the yearly "Doc fix."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Straggler, posted 01-31-2012 2:17 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Straggler, posted 01-31-2012 5:16 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5154
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 128 of 181 (650506)
01-31-2012 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
01-31-2012 12:34 PM


Re: Putting things in perspective
Phat writes:
We likely will inflate the debt away.

Then say goodbye to that pension you were hoping to retire on. It would be inflated away.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 12:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 5:14 PM nwr has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 7345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 129 of 181 (650508)
01-31-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by nwr
01-31-2012 5:10 PM


Re: Putting things in perspective
Yes I know. Social Security would be gone, too.

Thus I suppose we cant inflate the debt away. What we need to do is prevent the rest of the world from adopting a new global reserve currency for trade apart from the US Dollar. If they sink us, it would destroy our recovery. Gas would cost a fortune. Taxes would go up up up.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by nwr, posted 01-31-2012 5:10 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 01-31-2012 5:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 132 by nwr, posted 01-31-2012 5:25 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9944
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 130 of 181 (650509)
01-31-2012 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
01-31-2012 4:38 PM


Re: Putting things in perspective
Crash writes:

There's only a deficit because, every year, Congress arranges that there be one:

In a technical US specific legal sense you are no doubt correct. But the reason the US has a budget deficit is ultimately the same reason any other nation can be said to have a budget deficit. Namely because the government is spending more than it is taking in.

Whether one believes that austerity (i.e. reducing expenditure) or the more Keynesian approach of promoting growth (and thus increasing revenue) is the best long term solution to this - Depends. But I think most economists agree that the US deficit needs to come down eventually if the economy is to be sustainable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 01-31-2012 4:38 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24664
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 131 of 181 (650514)
01-31-2012 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
01-31-2012 5:14 PM


More utter nonsense Phat.
What we need to do is prevent the rest of the world from adopting a new global reserve currency for trade apart from the US Dollar.

HUH?

Do you know what "reserve currencies" are?

Why would it matter in what currency trade is conducted?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 5:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 5:42 PM jar has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5154
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 132 of 181 (650515)
01-31-2012 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
01-31-2012 5:14 PM


Re: Putting things in perspective
Phat writes:
What we need to do is prevent the rest of the world from adopting a new global reserve currency for trade apart from the US Dollar.

The best way to handle that, is to adopt sensible economic policies. But that's not easy to do when members of the Grand Old lunatic Party block just about everything sensible.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 5:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 7345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 133 of 181 (650524)
01-31-2012 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
01-31-2012 5:21 PM


Re: More utter nonsense Phat.
yes. We alone can print money to cover our debts. Other countries must first convert to dollars and then make sure their own currency is sound.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/10/markets/dollar/index.htm

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 01-31-2012 5:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 01-31-2012 5:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24664
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 134 of 181 (650525)
01-31-2012 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
01-31-2012 5:42 PM


Re: More utter nonsense Phat.
We can print all the dollars we want, but what does that have to do with either the debt or deficit?

Other nations get to decide what they think the dollar is worth and if we just print money then guess what they do?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 01-31-2012 5:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
onifre
Member
Posts: 4853
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 135 of 181 (650557)
02-01-2012 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Buzsaw
01-27-2012 4:01 PM


Re: Oni Right On USA. Straggler Straggles
Oni and Buzsaw don't have a lot in common, but we both have enough appreciation for the good life the US of A has afforded us, our parents, our grand parents and their forbears for the last two centuries.

I heard a fact today, it said you're right about the fact that I appreciate the good life the US of A has afforded me.

These brits won't get it because they're too busy being socialists.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2012 4:01 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
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