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Author Topic:   SOPA/PIPA and 'Intellectual Property'
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 303 (650555)
01-31-2012 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by crashfrog
01-31-2012 4:32 PM


Re: Great logo, shame about the cause
But again, in a world where you're under no obligation to support an artist's work unless you enjoy it, why would anyone pay for a movie unless they wanted to support the artist? Why wouldn't you just go to the free theaters, if patronizing an artist was meaningless to you?
In such a world, there would be no obligation to pay for the movie even if you did enjoy it. I, in particular, would never, ever decide to pay Mel Gibson a single penny regardless of how good his movie is.
I think the number of people who would pay extra money to make sure the artists got their cut, when there is no stigma attached with going to the cheaper theater would be exceedingly small and possibly zero. I thought you were trying to convince me otherwise.
Your description does sound a bit like the world Lennon sings about in "Imagine" though.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by crashfrog, posted 01-31-2012 4:32 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2012 11:31 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 227 of 303 (650585)
02-01-2012 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Jon
01-31-2012 6:28 PM


Re: Language
The amount people are willing to pay does not change when the supply changes; only the amount that they actually pay changes.
Speaking of unsubstantiated assertions.
In my sandwich analogy, I'm not willing to pay very much for something I know I can go down the street and get for a good price, or even go home and make for myself. However, if I were in the desert and the sandwich were all that was keeping me alive, I'd probably be willing to give up just about anything for the sandwich.
You can't say that in my normal life, here in a semi-populous city in the Midwest of America that'd I'd be willing to give up just about anything for such a common commodity. If I know I can get it a little further down the road, the amount I'm willing to pay is dramatically lower than if it could be the last opportunity for the foreseeable future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Jon, posted 01-31-2012 6:28 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 228 of 303 (650587)
02-01-2012 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Jon
01-31-2012 7:32 PM


Re: Language
Because no one ever puts money in the hat of a street performer...
Yeah, I forgot about all those amazing street performers that people are climbing over themselves to pay for the performances by, as opposed to, I don't know, feeling empathy for a fellow human being who's down on his luck.
But even if people were paying for the performance itself, sit and watch one of those street performers. What percentage do you think actually pay anything, and what do you think the average amount paid is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Jon, posted 01-31-2012 7:32 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 229 of 303 (650605)
02-01-2012 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by NoNukes
01-31-2012 11:58 PM


Re: Great logo, shame about the cause
In such a world, there would be no obligation to pay for the movie even if you did enjoy it. I, in particular, would never, ever decide to pay Mel Gibson a single penny regardless of how good his movie is.
And that's fine. Why should you be forced to?
The obligation I was speaking of was an ethical one, not a legal one. If you don't feel it, then you don't feel it. But the abundant evidence is that a lot of people feel it in respects that have nothing to do with the law. Louis CK, etc.
I thought you were trying to convince me otherwise.
I'm not under any obligation to convince you of anything. You're the one under the obligation to explain why people don't want to patronize artists, when we can look around the world as it exists now and see that, given the ease of piracy now, payments by audiences to artists are overwhelmingly a voluntary expression of support and patronage.
There's nothing hypothetical about what people would do in a world of easy piracy because we live in a world of easy piracy, and artists get paid. Good artists get paid quite a bit. And where the rights-restrictive "pay-for-play" model doesn't really work - painting, sculpture, etc - there's public funding of the arts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by NoNukes, posted 01-31-2012 11:58 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by NoNukes, posted 02-02-2012 1:14 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 235 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-02-2012 10:48 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 230 of 303 (650606)
02-01-2012 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by NoNukes
01-31-2012 7:34 PM


Re: Problems with the current copyright model
I don't find this reply responsive. If you're just going to ignore points, we're done here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by NoNukes, posted 01-31-2012 7:34 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by NoNukes, posted 02-01-2012 6:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 231 of 303 (650628)
02-01-2012 12:58 PM


Well well...
Well, looks like Techdirt did a nice little report on the state of things:
The Sky Is Rising! | Techdirt
Conclusion:
quote:
Changing the Debate
Unfortunately, it feels like much of the debate about copyright law over the past few decades has been based on claims about the state of an industry that simply don’t match up to reality. Rather than decrying the state of the entertainment industry today and seeking new laws to protect certain aspects of the industry,
we should be celebrating the growth and vitality of this vibrant part of our economy -- while consumers enjoy an amazing period of creativity.
We hope that this report will help shift the debate away from a focus on a narrow set of interests who have yet to take advantage of the new opportunities, and towards a more positive recognition of the wide-open possibilities presented by new technologies to create, promote, distribute, connect and monetize. We’re living in a truly amazing time for the entertainment industry, and it’s time that our national debate reflects that reality.
In a time of disruptive change, it is important that any regulatory efforts be supported by actual data. Instead of reflexively trying to protect traditional entertainment businesses, this research should provide a starting point for many to rethink some of the assumptions that have been made in the past about the
state of the industry.

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by nwr, posted 02-01-2012 3:00 PM Huntard has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 232 of 303 (650643)
02-01-2012 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Huntard
02-01-2012 12:58 PM


Re: Well well...
Well, looks like Techdirt did a nice little report on the state of things
That nicely summarizes my view.
IP law should be such as to encourage creativity and innovation. It should not be used to protect failing industries.
This might require a lot of change in how things are done. We should welcome that change.
In many ways, new technologies have been a boon to the creative. But often IP law has been inhibiting some of the new forms of innovation. We need to change direction.
On films - yes, if we want to have blockbuster movies, then we need some protection for the industry, though not necessarily what we currently have. Personally, I am not a big fan of those expensive productions, but I don't impose my preferences on others. I do want it to be easier for independent video creators.
Oh, and patenting of software should end. Copyright and license protection should be sufficient.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Huntard, posted 02-01-2012 12:58 PM Huntard has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 303 (650661)
02-01-2012 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by crashfrog
02-01-2012 11:33 AM


Re: Problems with the current copyright model
Crashfrog,
I've posted any number of responses to your messages which you have not even acknowledged, let alone responded to. Yet, somehow it's somehow some kind of injustice that I don't find one or more of your points important enough to respond to.
Yeah, we're done.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2012 11:33 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 234 of 303 (650684)
02-02-2012 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by crashfrog
02-01-2012 11:31 AM


Re: Great logo, shame about the cause
There's nothing hypothetical about what people would do in a world of easy piracy because we live in a world of easy piracy, and artists get paid. Good artists get paid quite a bit. And where the rights-restrictive "pay-for-play" model doesn't really work - painting, sculpture, etc - there's public funding of the arts.
We don't live in a world where people can go to the movie theater to see LW 17 on the big screen without some segment of the MPAA getting their cut. There is no evidence that substantial number of theaters would elect to pay out some of their ticket proceeds to the movie studios if they did not have to do so.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2012 11:31 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 303 (650704)
02-02-2012 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by crashfrog
02-01-2012 11:31 AM


we're not there yet
we can look around the world as it exists now and see that, given the ease of piracy now, payments by audiences to artists are overwhelmingly a voluntary expression of support and patronage.
I don't think that's true. I don't think there's that many people who know how to pirate well. I think there's still plenty of people who are paying for stuff becuase they don't have the option not to (while still getting the stuff). I also think that those people, when given the option, will take the stuff and not pay for it. That would lead to a loss of payments by audiences to artists that we are not at now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2012 11:31 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Huntard, posted 02-02-2012 1:19 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 236 of 303 (650724)
02-02-2012 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by New Cat's Eye
02-02-2012 10:48 AM


Re: we're not there yet
Catholic Scientist writes:
I don't think that's true. I don't think there's that many people who know how to pirate well.
Really? It's as easy as installing one program on your PC, going to a website, use a search function like google, and clicking on a link. You can't tell me there are people who are to supid for that (well, ok, there might be some people who are, but for the overwhelming majority, this shouldn't pose a great challenge at all). Or even if they're not too aware of all this, there's surely someone in their vicinity who is. It would then becomes as easy as clicking on a bookmark, performing the search and clicking the link. If you're incapable of doing that, well, why the fuck do you have a PC to begin with?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-02-2012 10:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Jon, posted 02-02-2012 2:16 PM Huntard has replied
 Message 241 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-02-2012 2:39 PM Huntard has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 303 (650734)
02-02-2012 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Huntard
02-02-2012 1:19 PM


Re: we're not there yet
Really? It's as easy as installing one program on your PC, going to a website, use a search function like google, and clicking on a link. You can't tell me there are people who are to supid for that (well, ok, there might be some people who are, but for the overwhelming majority, this shouldn't pose a great challenge at all). Or even if they're not too aware of all this, there's surely someone in their vicinity who is. It would then becomes as easy as clicking on a bookmark, performing the search and clicking the link.
There is more involved than you think. Perhaps the difference is related to the two countries we live in, but here, at least, pirating stuff (especially bigger things like movies) does require a little bit of computer savvy.
If you're incapable of doing that, well, why the fuck do you have a PC to begin with?
For Facebook, of course.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Huntard, posted 02-02-2012 1:19 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Huntard, posted 02-02-2012 2:21 PM Jon has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 238 of 303 (650736)
02-02-2012 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Jon
02-02-2012 2:16 PM


Re: we're not there yet
Jon writes:
There is more involved than you think. Perhaps the difference is related to the two countries we live in, but here, at least, pirating stuff (especially bigger things like movies) does require a little bit of computer savvy.
Wait, what's preventing you guys from installing a bittorrent client, going to the pirate bay and clicking on "get torrent"? There's nothing that is preventing us from doing this over here.
Even now that two ISP's over here have been forced by the court to block the piratebay, you can still get to it so easily, it's become really rather sad for the anti-piracy guys. They can do whatever they wish, but short from going after indivdual downloaders (something even they don't want to do), there's absolutely nothing they can do to stop anybody from downloading whatever the hell they please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Jon, posted 02-02-2012 2:16 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by hooah212002, posted 02-02-2012 2:32 PM Huntard has replied
 Message 240 by Jon, posted 02-02-2012 2:39 PM Huntard has replied
 Message 245 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2012 2:50 PM Huntard has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 239 of 303 (650738)
02-02-2012 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Huntard
02-02-2012 2:21 PM


Re: we're not there yet
Wait, what's preventing you guys from installing a bittorrent client, going to the pirate bay and clicking on "get torrent"? There's nothing that is preventing us from doing this over here.
It's the people who do just that who get busted. The less tech savvy idiots who think it's that simple. Not sure about the laws in The Netherlands, but it's people who share (uploaders) get busted here in the U.S., not the downloaders. But I'm not going to divulge trade secrets round these parts.... I say let the morons keep getting busted so they don't spill the beans on the tricks of the trade.

Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion. Joseph Campbell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Huntard, posted 02-02-2012 2:21 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Huntard, posted 02-02-2012 2:41 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 240 of 303 (650739)
02-02-2012 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Huntard
02-02-2012 2:21 PM


Re: we're not there yet
Wait, what's preventing you guys from installing a bittorrent client, going to the pirate bay and clicking on "get torrent"? There's nothing that is preventing us from doing this over here.
And that's more difficult than you might think.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Huntard, posted 02-02-2012 2:21 PM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Huntard, posted 02-02-2012 2:42 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
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