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Author Topic:   The Irrefutable Public Health Care Thread
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 181 of 314 (650842)
02-03-2012 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Straggler
02-03-2012 7:56 AM


Re: Parody Logic
As an outsider the present US system seems to be unjustifiably expensive and barbarically non-inclusive.
As an insider the present US system is unjustifiably expensive and barbarically non-inclusive.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 7:56 AM Straggler has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 182 of 314 (650846)
02-03-2012 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Straggler
02-03-2012 7:56 AM


Re: Parody Logic
Firstly it’s not free. It’s a form of nationalised health insurance.
It's free as opposed to paying for it. It's government issued healthcare.
However I have interacted with the UK healthcare system a lot in recent years. Very elderly relatives slowly but inexorably reaching the end of their lives and requiring medical assistance so that they can do so with some dignity intact. Parents in their 60s who are still basically fit and healthy but who have started to require various medications for minor aches and ailments as the pace of age decline starts to become more pronounced. My two little kids who are constantly being checked and immunised so as to avoid future problems as well as being treated for the inevitable playground scrapes and the probably nothing serious but given his age we’d like to keep him in for observation illnesses. Furthermore missus Straggler partakes in these strange, mysterious and (as far as I can tell) predominantly female rituals called things like check-ups and scans. What exactly these entail is anyone’s guess but they are apparently a good thing and have something to do with a strange idea called prevention
Probably the single largest benefit I personally get from the free healthcare system in the UK is the peace of mind that those I care for are being well advised and cared for. Frankly this is priceless to me. And I have absolutely no problem with my taxes contributing to provide this insurance to all families across the nation such that health provision is made on the basis of need rather than individual ability to pay. That, after all, is what insurance is supposed to be about.
That's all well and good in a culture that didn't invent the Baconator. Pictured in the link is only the double, there exists a triple baconator, we did that. Not the UK. Do you know what a Baconator is?
quote:
3 hamburger patties with 3 slices of American cheese, 9 strips of Applewood smoked bacon, mayonnaise and ketchup on a premium bun.
Calories: 1330
With that, the triple Whooper and the Double Quarter Pounder w/ cheese, you got yourself the Triple-By-Pass-Burger-Team.
Don't you think THIS should be our actual concern, or maybe the almost 19,000 Mc Donalds (more than the entire world combined), or 24hour Taco Bells? C'mon man.
The unhealthy people need the most healthcare and place a burdon on the rest of us. Financially. The overall cost of healthcare is high because of this. In the US that is the problem. The healthcare we have now is GREAT, but it's expensive because of the over weight pie eaters and Baconator inhalers.
A healthier nation would reduce this cost, and we can have good old American insurance, and not your socialist death squads.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 7:56 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 12:28 PM onifre has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 314 (650858)
02-03-2012 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by onifre
02-03-2012 3:10 AM


Re: Parody Logic
That's all's I'm saying.
Um, you have said a bit more than that...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by onifre, posted 02-03-2012 3:10 AM onifre has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 314 (650859)
02-03-2012 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Straggler
02-03-2012 7:56 AM


Re: Parody Logic
Firstly it’s not free.
Nothing is "free"... but its free in the sense that they don't have to "pay" for it.
Healthcare is free in the UK.
So you know what I mean. Isn't this where you would berate me for being inconsistant?
Those of us who advocate universal healthcare are not doing so on the basis of demanding the right to have society pick up the bill for our personal lifestyle choices. We are advocating universal healthcare because we believe it is part of a sane and civilised society.
That's beside the point. Regardless of why you're advocating for it, there's still the issue of it being silly to trash your body and then expect to have someone fix a problem that arrises without you paying for it. Too, there's the moral hazard of this.
As an outsider the present US system seems to be unjustifiably expensive and barbarically non-inclusive.
Its been working fine for me. It is a little pricey, but we do a lot of innovation and inventing here too. That's gotta be factored in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 7:56 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 12:25 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 191 by Warthog, posted 02-03-2012 12:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 185 of 314 (650874)
02-03-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2012 11:43 AM


Re: Parody Logic
CS writes:
That's beside the point. Regardless of why you're advocating for it, there's still the issue of it being silly to trash your body and then expect to have someone fix a problem that arrises without you paying for it. Too, there's the moral hazard of this.
This of course applies to ALL insurance schemes. Not just universal ones. ALL insurance schemes consist of a central pool of contributions being allocated out on the basis of need (in the form of claims or provision).
Any member of any insurance scheme who acts irresponsibly is arguably behaving in a way that is unfair on the rest of the contributors to that scheme. This isn't specific to universal health insurance. It's true for all forms of insurance.
If you want to eliminate this entirely then you would just pay for whatever you need when you need it. Then there is no chance of you having to pay for anyone else's irresponsibility or they yours.
Is this what you want?
CS writes:
Nothing is "free"... but its free in the sense that they don't have to "pay" for it.
By this logic your healthcare is also "free" if it is paid for by an insurance company.
CS writes:
Its been working fine for me.
I am guessing that you, like me, have little direct need for healthcare.
CS writes:
It is a little pricey, but we do a lot of innovation and inventing here too. That's gotta be factored in.
Are insurance companies paying for that research? Why do you think a universal health care system would stop that research? Do other countries with socilialised health not do medical research?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2012 11:43 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2012 12:46 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 186 of 314 (650876)
02-03-2012 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by onifre
02-03-2012 10:37 AM


Re: Parody Logic
Should you Yanks ever sort yourselves out and implement a sane and civilised healthcare system the first thing it will need to do is implement a large scale prevention and eduction programme.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by onifre, posted 02-03-2012 10:37 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by onifre, posted 02-03-2012 12:52 PM Straggler has replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3968 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


(1)
Message 187 of 314 (650882)
02-03-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by onifre
02-03-2012 2:47 AM


Re: Parody Logic
quote:
I see you got 3 "likes" for your post. I'm guessing people here have lost their minds and don't know good from poorly written anymore.
Feeling inadequate? Don't worry, I'm sure scattergun insults will make you feel important again.
quote:
Well, since we're just serving up anecdotes
I am using one case I know well to illustrate my points. If you want me to dredge up off topic statistics, let me know. Maybe try it yourself.
Learning cures depression. Everyone knows that.
quote:
I present ME. Self diagnosed depressed.
Not another wannabe emo narcissist. Not getting enough attention and decided you were 'depressed'? I've lost count of the number of wankers who decided they were 'Self diagnosed depressed'. It became fashionable and the followers followed. Self help book or depressiontest.com is for sale | www.brandforce.com ?
About 15 years ago it was the same with bipolar. Every arsehole in the street 'had it'. Take your disease of the week ideas and shove 'em. Let me guess, you're an artist too?
quote:
Cured it with an active lifestyle and good dieting.
Depression is a component in a lot of disorders , including bipolar and is in itself much more complicated than you think. If there was one single cure, there would be a lot less people dying out there, I can guarantee you that. All you have shown so far is that you know fuck all about what you're talking about and only have weak fat jokes to offer.
quote:
She's probably just stressed out
Just illustrates my point. This bullshit kills people.
The only part of this that is on topic is that treatment for her was only within reach because of universal health care. For about six months after her major breakdown, I had to care for her full time and couldn't work. We nearly starved. One thing we did get was a lot of support and medical care that we couldn't hope to afford ourselves. She says she would be dead without it but now she's talking about working on her masters degree.
quote:
No I meant just Americans, not "people" as in everybody. I don't really care if the rest of the world is over weight and ugly.
This is why the term Ugly American exists. I was talking about people. America is not the centre of the universe and neither are you.
quote:
"Good habits formed at youth make all the difference" Aristotle, I think.
No, I think I said that earlier in this thread. Don't get yourself confused.
I am not confused. Aristotle said it first. I quoted it to show that I was agreeing with you on this principle. I also tried to explain why it isn't the point of this debate.
quote:
Who gets to decide? How about a scale? A fat test? No person is going to make a subjective decision, it'll all be by a chart. It needs to be fair. Then you'll see people get healthy quick when there's a reward at the end for being healthy. As it is now, people are rewarded for being UN-healthy.
The facts are against you. America is about the only first world nation without some form of subsidised health care. You spend more on health care but you are fatter and have a lower life expectancy. There is no evidence that people will be rewarded to be unhealthy. Quite the opposite. You don't even get better care when you do pay for it.
Once again, the problem you are describing is one of education and culture. It's a red herring. I'm waiting for you to bring God into it.
quote:
I'm sorry but that's what nature wants, that's what happens to every other species.
Close enough. Another red herring. This is almost a parody of creationist tactics. Poe's law still applies. What nature 'wants' sounds delusional. Sure you don't mean Gaia?
quote:
We by-pass this with healthcare and have now over populated the planet and we're running out of resources
Off topic and another red herring. When we overpopulate past critical mass, we will suffer for it, no doubt. In this, we are in agreement. Once again, I direct you to my favourite movement. I am serious when I say I think they're right. You will not out-cynic me.
quote:
It's because your facts are wrong and you don't have as many fast food places.
There are 18,590 Mc Donalds alone in the US. That's more than the entire WORLD combined, by a lot! And we have an obesity problem, I wonder why that is...?
Just checked my facts. You're right - there's a shitload of McDonalds in the US. There's also a shitload of people there. Per capita there are only about 80% as many here. Congratulations - you actually made a valid point. The difference isn't huge, but you're right.
quote:
Don't tell me what to do, chubby.
I didn't.
Try not to be a dick. It doesn't affect me but it turns you into a dickhead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by onifre, posted 02-03-2012 2:47 AM onifre has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 314 (650885)
02-03-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Straggler
02-03-2012 12:25 PM


Re: Parody Logic
This of course applies to ALL insurance schemes. Not just universal ones. ALL insurance schemes consist of a central pool of contributions being allocated out on the basis of need (in the form of claims or provision).
Any member of any insurance scheme who acts in a way such that their costs will have to be covered by the central pool is behaving in a way that is unfair on the rest of the contributors to that scheme. This isn't specific to universal health insurance. It's true for all forms of insurance.
Universal insurance would increase the number of people who get free healthcare.
By this logic your healthcare is also "free" if it is paid for by an insurance company.
I pay for my insurance out of my paycheck.
Are insurance companies paying for that research? Why do you think a universal health care system would stop that research? Do other countries with socilialised health not do medical research?
The research just adds to the total costs. I don't think it would stop. I think other countries do significantly less than we do and people don't factor that in when talking about the cost of healthcare in the US vs the socialized version in another country.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 12:25 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 12:51 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 192 by Theodoric, posted 02-03-2012 1:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 189 of 314 (650887)
02-03-2012 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2012 12:46 PM


Re: Parody Logic
CS writes:
I pay for my insurance out of my paycheck.
So do I. Yet apparently mine is "free" and yours isn't.
CS writes:
Universal insurance would increase the number of people who get free healthcare.
It would also increase the number contributing to the central pool.
CS writes:
I think other countries do significantly less than we do and people don't factor that in when talking about the cost of healthcare in the US vs the socialized version in another country.
Then I guess the rest of us should cheer the fact that many Americans have such shit healthcare provision as the cost of providing medical advances for the rest of the world.
Is that what you want? Do you have any foundation for your claim or is it a post hoc justification for your opposition to universal healthcare?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2012 12:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2012 1:03 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 194 by Tangle, posted 02-03-2012 1:05 PM Straggler has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 190 of 314 (650888)
02-03-2012 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Straggler
02-03-2012 12:28 PM


Re: Parody Logic
Should you Yanks ever sort yourselves out and implement a sane and civilised healthcare system the first thing it will need to do is implement a large scale prevention and eduction programme.
Our healthcare system is fine, as long as you pay for it. The price of that healthcare is related to how healthy the people are. Just like auto insurance goes up in high volume areas that are more prone to car accidents. So, more chubbies equals higher cost. We have to carry the burden now for the unhealth ones, all universal healthcare will do is transfer that burden to the government.
And besides, how would we ever create the quadruple Baconater?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 12:28 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 1:08 PM onifre has replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3968 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 191 of 314 (650890)
02-03-2012 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2012 11:43 AM


Re: Parody Logic
quote:
Its been working fine for me. It is a little pricey, but we do a lot of innovation and inventing here too. That's gotta be factored in.
Just for the record, The US hardly dominates in medical innovations. From what I can find, it's about the same as the UK, Canada and Australia - all countries with universal health care of some sort.
e.g.
30 Significant Medical Achievements and Their Country of Origin | Reach and Teach's Just Lists

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2012 11:43 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2012 1:07 PM Warthog has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 192 of 314 (650892)
02-03-2012 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2012 12:46 PM


Re: Parody Logic
I pay for my insurance out of my paycheck.
With universal healthcare you would pay for insurance through your taxes
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2012 12:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2012 1:09 PM Theodoric has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 314 (650893)
02-03-2012 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Straggler
02-03-2012 12:51 PM


Re: Parody Logic
So do I. Yet apparently mine is "free" and yours isn't
Huh? Its not free for you if you're paying for it. Its free for the guy who isn't.
It would also increase the number contributing to the central pool.
That doesn't make it any less silly for the fatties to cry for free healthcare.
Then I guess the rest of us should cheer the fact that many Americans have such shit healthcare provision as the cost of providing medical advances for the rest of the world.
I don't subscribe the quality of our healthcare to our provisions, but I do think they help justify the cost.
Do you have any foundation for your claim or is it a post hoc justification for your opposition to universal healthcare?
I'm not opposing universal healthcare.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 12:51 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 1:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 194 of 314 (650894)
02-03-2012 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Straggler
02-03-2012 12:51 PM


Re: Parody Logic
So do I. Yet apparently mine is "free" and yours isn't.
Here's the original statement of policy for the NHS, back in 1948. I think it's one of the world's great political achievements.
That it meet the needs of everyone
That it be free at the point of delivery
That it be based on clinical need, not ability to pay
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 12:51 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 1:11 PM Tangle has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 314 (650895)
02-03-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Warthog
02-03-2012 12:57 PM


Re: Parody Logic
quote:
Its been working fine for me. It is a little pricey, but we do a lot of innovation and inventing here too. That's gotta be factored in.
Just for the record, The US hardly dominates in medical innovations. From what I can find, it's about the same as the UK, Canada and Australia - all countries with universal health care of some sort.
e.g.
30 Significant Medical Achievements and Their Country of Origin | Reach and Teach's Just Lists
I'm not saying we dominate in medical innovations, nor that we've made the most significant medical achievements; I think that we spend a lot more money on research at the facilities that also provide the healthcare and that that drives up the costs in ways that it doesn't in other countries.
Welcome to EvC by the way. How'd you find us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Warthog, posted 02-03-2012 12:57 PM Warthog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Warthog, posted 02-03-2012 1:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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