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Author Topic:   The Irrefutable Public Health Care Thread
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 211 of 314 (650929)
02-03-2012 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2012 2:01 PM


Re: Parody Logic
CS writes:
Silly, ain't it?
Yes you are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2012 2:01 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 212 of 314 (650931)
02-03-2012 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2012 2:01 PM


Re: Parody Logic
Silly, ain't it?
That's 50% of America's youth. Let's get the diabetes medicine ready, we're going to need it.
- Oni

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 213 of 314 (650932)
02-03-2012 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by onifre
02-03-2012 2:32 PM


Re: Parody Logic
Straggler writes:
I ate an industrial sized Thai curry for lunch and am currently a bit drunk at work.
Dark Oni writes:
I hope you go for a nice jog tomorrow.
Actually - I probably will.
Dark Oni writes:
Disgusting.
That is what Missus Straggler says about my post jog sweatiness. It's all a matter of perspective....
Oni writes:
Under my plan the older people would be as healthy as anyone else.
You've discovered a cure for aging? Immortality awaits us all!!! Praise Dark Oni....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by onifre, posted 02-03-2012 2:32 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by onifre, posted 02-03-2012 2:45 PM Straggler has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 214 of 314 (650937)
02-03-2012 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Straggler
02-03-2012 2:37 PM


Re: Parody Logic
Actually - I probably will.
Good job. Me too.
That is what Missus Straggler says about my post jog sweatiness. It's all a matter of perspective....
Well a healthy man is better in bed, she'll be ok with the sweatiness.
You've discovered a cure for aging? Immortality awaits us all!!! Praise Dark Oni....
You can age and be healthy at the same time.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 2:37 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2012 2:50 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 217 by Rahvin, posted 02-03-2012 3:06 PM onifre has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 215 of 314 (650938)
02-03-2012 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by onifre
02-03-2012 2:45 PM


Re: Parody Logic
Dark Oni writes:
Well a healthy man is better in bed, she'll be ok with the sweatiness.
Dude - Seriously - She has the nose of a fucking sommelier (a "wine taster" to me and you). A bit of fat - No prob. A bead of sweat - WHOOP WHOOP WHHOOOOP. Alarm bells and no Straggler lovetime fun.
Oni writes:
You can age and be healthy at the same time.
"Age" is just a euphemism for "approach death". By definition you cannot be healthy as you approach death.
Death is unhealthy.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 216 of 314 (650941)
02-03-2012 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Theodoric
02-03-2012 2:32 PM


Re: Parody Logic
In the UK we have a good number of specialist research hospitals that also provide care. In fact providing care to those whose medical conditions they specialise in would seem rather fundamental to their research activities.
I am not sure what the hell CS's point is on this....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Theodoric, posted 02-03-2012 2:32 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 217 of 314 (650943)
02-03-2012 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by onifre
02-03-2012 2:45 PM


Re: Parody Logic
You can age and be healthy at the same time.
...not really. Health inevitably declines with age. A healthy lifestyle can delay the inevitable, but entropy always wins in the end. Exercise all you want, eat only a perfect diet, cut out everything bad for your health, and you'll still eventually require medical care as your body starts to wear out.
A healthy lifestyle reduces risk factors, but it does not eliminate them. A person who exercises properly and regularly and eats right will be less likely to get sick or injured, but I recall a certain Tour de France winner who still got cancer.
I once knew a girl who, as a child, was scratched by a neighbor's car. She got an infection, which led to a fever, which was high and prolonged enough to cause minor brain damage. While she was fortunate enough to retain her full cognitive ability, she suffered from epilepsy, with constant grand mal seizures until she received proper medication. Even with medication, she would still suffer multiple petite and grand mal seizures every month. She exercised. She tried multiple diets as directed by her doctors, ranging from full-on Atkins (before it was called Atkins, high-protein zero-carb) to vegetarian. Her epilepsy persisted. A healthy lifestyle did nothing for her.
I know personally several people with a range of illnesses today, ranging from general anxiety disorders to bipolar disorder to HIV and one with a terminal neuro-muscular disorder whose name I cannot recall. Healthy lifestyles did nothing to prevent these illnesses. One was a genetic disorder from birth (he's been confined to a wheeelchair since childhood and can barely eat on his own today, and it's doubtful he'll live past 30 as his entire muscular system continues to atrophy and he eventually stops breathing).
My late grandfather had cancer, twice, despite living a very healthy lifestyle.
My other grandfather always got plenty of exercise - so much so that now he has artificial knees and hips.
I could keep going. A healthy lifestyle only reduces health risk, it does not eliminate it. Universal healthcare is mandatory, regardless of the diet and exercise of the population.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by onifre, posted 02-03-2012 2:45 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
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Warthog
Member (Idle past 3968 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


(1)
Message 218 of 314 (650948)
02-03-2012 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by New Cat's Eye
02-03-2012 2:15 PM


Re: Parody Logic
quote:
If those other countries have hospitals that aren't also research facilities, then that would play a part in their cost being lower.
Just had a quick look for numbers and you may have a point. Found a ranking of top hospitals around the world and it seems like they are looking at research hospitals in particular. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong...
List of hospitals
Seems like a huge a huge difference. It occurred to me to compare per capita, so...
Populations by country
Using these two lists - top 1000 research hospital per capita...
Taiwan - 1/407454
Canada - 1/706231
US - 1/734626
UK - 1/958461
Australia - 1/1630057
Germany - 1/1994341
Just a quickly sketched out, ultra-broad indicator but interesting. I've not done the maths on the whole list, just eurocentrically selected a few.
The US clearly leads in absolute numbers but the list changes when you look at it on a per capita basis. There is some credence to your statement.
When you look at costs to the taxpayer, you'd expect Canadians to have to pay more but they don't.
None of this holds any great weight - there are so many factors ignored but it's kept me busy for 15 minutes
I'm really surprised that Taiwan is on top of this list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-03-2012 2:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-15-2012 11:08 AM Warthog has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 219 of 314 (650960)
02-03-2012 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Straggler
02-03-2012 3:04 PM


Re: Parody Logic
Yes here in the US also. Not sure where the whole higher cost idea comes from.
I am not sure what the hell CS's point is on this....
And if you ask for the point he lashes out with a juvenile response.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 314 (652669)
02-15-2012 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Warthog
02-03-2012 3:09 PM


Re: Parody Logic
Just had a quick look for numbers and you may have a point. Found a ranking of top hospitals around the world and it seems like they are looking at research hospitals in particular. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong...
List of hospitals
Seems like a huge a huge difference.
Holy shit... so out of the top hospitals in the world, no matter how you slice it, the US has almost half of them, and then the next groups down are about 10% of that.
As I said:
quote:
I've seen it in universal healthcare discussions where people will say something like:
"Look at this country, they have socialized healthcare and the costs is waaay lower than in the U.S. So we should socialize ours to reduce the cost!"
So yeah, but that's a whole 'nother country. I don't think it considers all the right factors.
Its not as simple as "they're socialized and cheeper ergo we should socialize too".

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2012 1:25 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied
 Message 222 by Warthog, posted 02-15-2012 4:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 221 of 314 (652686)
02-15-2012 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by New Cat's Eye
02-15-2012 11:08 AM


Re: Parody Logic
Its not as simple as "they're socialized and cheeper ergo we should socialize too".
I know of no serious proposal for socialized medicine in the US.
Universal Healthcare does not equal socialized medicine. That being said I do not think there is a problem with socialized medicine.
If everyone is so against socialized things how about we privatize all the roads, police and fire protection and also the military. I mean socialism is evil isn't it?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Warthog
Member (Idle past 3968 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 222 of 314 (652713)
02-15-2012 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by New Cat's Eye
02-15-2012 11:08 AM


Re: Parody Logic
quote:
Holy shit... so out of the top hospitals in the world, no matter how you slice it, the US has almost half of them, and then the next groups down are about 10% of that.
Not quite - of my instant list, both Taiwan and Canada have more per capita. Taiwan has almost twice as many as the US. Seeing as we are talking about costs vs. benefit to the taxpayer, per capita is more useful than per country totals. It matters a lot how you slice it.
Don't forget that I only tried a handful to figure out; hardly comprehensive.
Edited by Warthog, : missed a spot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-15-2012 11:08 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-15-2012 4:22 PM Warthog has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 314 (652717)
02-15-2012 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Warthog
02-15-2012 4:09 PM


Re: Parody Logic
Not quite - of my instant list, both Taiwan and Canada have more per capita.
What does that imply?
Taiwan has almost twice as many as the US.
Is Taiwan a part of China?
Seeing as we are talking about costs vs. benefit to the taxpayer, per capita is more useful than per country totals. It matters a lot how you slice it.
That's not what I meant by slicing, but your point isn't lost.
How does dividing it per capita help determine how much it costs to run the whole thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Warthog, posted 02-15-2012 4:09 PM Warthog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Warthog, posted 02-15-2012 4:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3968 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


Message 224 of 314 (652723)
02-15-2012 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by New Cat's Eye
02-15-2012 4:22 PM


Re: Parody Logic
quote:
me writes:
Not quite - of my instant list, both Taiwan and Canada have more per capita.
What does that imply?
It is simply about the real cost to the individual. As we are talking about the costs of healthcare, whether privatised like in the US or universal/subsidised/socialised like a fair chunk of the world, we need to look at costs to the individual i.e. per capita. A country like the US with 300 million people will, of course have more hospitals than say Canada, with 33 million. If you consider the number of service users, Canada has more research hospitals than the US.
You made the point that health care in the US could be more expensive because of the amount of research being done there. I am simply showing that it is more complex than that. Overall, it doesn't seem to hold up as the results from the US (new discoveries) isn't greater than other countries (especially if you consider the number of researchers/facilities) and the number of research hospitals, although greater in the US is less per user/taxpayer than some other countries.
quote:
How does dividing it per capita help determine how much it costs to run the whole thing?
The same way purchasing co-ops are set up to minimise costs - the more people paying for something, the less it costs each individual. The reason it works like this is because (almost) everything done on a large scale is more efficient i.e. cheaper per user than if everyone pays for themselves. This is more about economics than just health care.
The important part of all of this is how much it will cost you as an individual to have universal vs privatised healthcare. i.e. the cost per capita. This seems to me to be a core factor of the debate.
quote:
Is Taiwan a part of China?
This depends on whether you ask the Chinese or the Taiwanese. Complex politics here - it's way off topic to get into it, so I've avoided Taiwan in my reply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-15-2012 4:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-16-2012 11:29 AM Warthog has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 314 (652816)
02-16-2012 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Warthog
02-15-2012 4:57 PM


Re: Parody Logic
It is simply about the real cost to the individual. As we are talking about the costs of healthcare, whether privatised like in the US or universal/subsidised/socialised like a fair chunk of the world, we need to look at costs to the individual i.e. per capita.
But not every individual has insurance... The cost isn't divided by everyone, and neither is the quality.
A country like the US with 300 million people will, of course have more hospitals than say Canada, with 33 million.
Even just the total number of people is going to affect the cost of healthcare for an individual... I guess I just don't see any value in comparing another country's cost to ours in considering only one variable: whether its socialized or not.
You made the point that health care in the US could be more expensive because of the amount of research being done there.
That wasn't really the entire point, that was an aside to the point that the cost of US healthcare has other things going on that don't always get factored in when assessing the price.
The important part of all of this is how much it will cost you as an individual to have universal vs privatised healthcare. i.e. the cost per capita. This seems to me to be a core factor of the debate.
Maybe I'm looking at it differently. Straggler said the cost of US healthcare was unjustifiably expensive. I was considering the total cost of healthcare in general and thinking that we do a lot of stuff at our hospitals that can drive that cost up (research, etc.). That's going to lead to an increase in cost to the individuals who are paying into it.
On the surface, dividing that cost by more people should lower the cost for everyone. But just because another country's costs is lower, while everyone is paying together, doesn't mean that the cost in the US isn't still going to be a lot higher because of all the other stuff that goes into the costs of the hospitals. Even if we were to socailize it, it still might cost a lot more than other countries and look unjustifiably expensive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Warthog, posted 02-15-2012 4:57 PM Warthog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by xongsmith, posted 02-16-2012 1:31 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 227 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2012 2:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 229 by Straggler, posted 02-16-2012 2:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 236 by Meddle, posted 02-16-2012 7:02 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 237 by Warthog, posted 02-16-2012 9:56 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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