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Author Topic:   The Awesome Obama Thread II
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 31 of 397 (651571)
02-08-2012 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by crashfrog
02-08-2012 9:57 AM


Re: As an outsider....
And this seems to fly in the face of basic negotiating tactics. Recall that it's the goal - the win condition - for Republicans when they can prevent the President from taking any action whatsoever. A failed or vetoed bill is a Republican win. So when the President says "it's either my way or no way", he's basically giving Republicans a simple choice: hand the President a win that costs Republicans at the polls, or easily achieve everything they want. Wow, I wonder which one they would take?
Republicans also considered it a win when the country suffered because bills were not being passed. They saw a failing country as a failing Obama, so they went out of their way to help the country fail.
You've allowed conservative complaints about "radical Socialism" and "social engineering" to color your recollection of a campaign that was, overwhelmingly, about pragmatic solutions to our problems. Obama never promised a radical reimagining of the American health care system, because he's always known that such a thing would be impossible.
In a twist of fate, Obama's ideas on national health insurance reform was nearly identical to the reforms signed into law by Romney in Massachusetts. Obama signed a bill that was weaker than the one Romney signed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 02-08-2012 9:57 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 32 of 397 (651580)
02-08-2012 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by crashfrog
02-08-2012 9:57 AM


Re: As an outsider....
No politician campaigning for election is going to get too upset about being portrayed as a man of principles and ideals are they? When bandying around the slogan Yes we can the Obama campaign team didn’t feel the need to asterisk it with a qualifier such as Sometimes. Partially. If at all. And even then only to an extent dictated by political realities rather than any silly high minded principles.
Now you can blame the Republican propaganda machine for caricaturing Obama as some sort of Messiah. But I would suggest you are giving them too much credit if you think that is the sole reason for people’s disillusionment. You could blame the world’s media for getting overly hyperbolic about his ability to implement significant change. You could blame people like me for being nave and failing to appreciate the sort of intricacies and barriers that the US political system imposes on it’s elected president and his ability to implement significant change.
But whoever you blame and however you look at it Obama was elected on a wave of optimism and expectation that has not been met. There are a lot of people who do feel disappointed. And I don’t think you can entirely divorce that disappointment from the high minded rhetoric flying around at the time of his election or tell people that they are somehow wrong to feel a bit betrayed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 02-08-2012 9:57 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 02-08-2012 1:13 PM Straggler has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 33 of 397 (651585)
02-08-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
02-07-2012 5:07 PM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
Drone writes:
You really believe that the usa government pays/acts to infect children with torturous diseases like it pays/acts to torture children?
Crash writes:
Sure, in that the government doesn't do either of those things.
You are so incredibly lame. (cough, cough, Omar Khadr)
From your previous post Message 167:
Crash writes:
When a majority of Americans support torture, you get torture, regardless of how liberal your president is.
The Federal government is fundamentally structured to privilege conservative outcomes, such as torture of children.
Seems like you are having a difficult time keeping your "counter-points" straight. Is Obama continuing the policy of Bush Jr.'s children torturing or not?
Under the Bush Jr. and Obama administrations, Bagram, Guantanamo Bay, and other secret rendition sites still operate to perform child torture. As an american, it's especially repugnant to me. For some reason, (like the immorally huge military defense budget), for democrat voters, child torture isn't really a deal breaker with Obama. IMO, I believe republican voters secretly LIKE the idea of child torture, . . . very, very much.
Since Crash has spent so much time "defending" Obama on his pro-child torture, even going so far to lie about Crash's previous stance, I can only imagine Crash is pro-child torture too.
Can I have a quick poll of participant replies to answer (I'd reeeally like to know):
1. Child torture is NOT a deal breaker with me regarding voting for Obama?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 02-07-2012 5:07 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Rahvin, posted 02-08-2012 12:07 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 35 by jar, posted 02-08-2012 12:12 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 34 of 397 (651588)
02-08-2012 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by dronestar
02-08-2012 11:56 AM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
1. Child torture is NOT a deal breaker with me regarding voting for Obama?
Child (or any) torture would be a deal breaker for me if any other candidate took a different position. But when the incumbent and his opposition both support torture, the point becomes rather moot. The incumbent is bad, the opposition is significantly worse, so I'll wind up voting for the lesser of two evils, as usual.
That said, I'm not entirely certain that Obama has continued the Bush Administration's policies specifically regarding torture for suspected terrorists, with extraordinary renditions, waterboarding, and the like. Are you aware, and if so, what's your source?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 11:56 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 12:29 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 397 (651593)
02-08-2012 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by dronestar
02-08-2012 11:56 AM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
I see nothing in the issue of Omar Ahmed Khadr that suggests child torture.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 11:56 AM dronestar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 02-08-2012 12:29 PM jar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 36 of 397 (651595)
02-08-2012 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Rahvin
02-08-2012 12:07 PM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
Rahvin writes:
That said, I'm not entirely certain that Obama has continued the Bush Administration's policies specifically regarding torture for suspected terrorists, with extraordinary renditions, waterboarding, and the like. Are you aware, and if so, what's your source?
Rahvin, what type of source are you looking for? . . .
Since america's "pullout" (we still employ ten's of thousands of US paid merceneries in Iraq, let alone the thousands of military consultants employed at the "embassy," (so much for "ending the Iraqi occupation" campaign promise)), I cannot be sure right now if america is still 100% responsible for atrocities happening in Bagram, Iraq. But as far as Guantanamo Bay, it's illegalities/crimes are still open for business (despite campaign promises) and more importantly, secret extraordinary rendition to countries that DO practice torture are still used by Obama:
quote:
While the Obama administration has tried to distance itself from some of the harshest counterterrorism techniques, it has also said that at least some forms of renditions will continue.
Extraordinary rendition - Wikipedia
Rahvin writes:
The incumbent is bad, the opposition is significantly worse, so I'll wind up voting for the lesser of two evils, as usual.
Grrr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Rahvin, posted 02-08-2012 12:07 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 02-08-2012 1:15 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 02-08-2012 1:16 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 37 of 397 (651596)
02-08-2012 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
02-08-2012 12:12 PM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
He was 15 when he was captured, and it's possible that he was tortured (I have no idea whether it actually happened) but that was years before Obama took the presidency. He did plead guilty in 2010, with Obama in power, but he was 24 at the time, and still I have no knowledge of torture. The closest thing I've seen is that indefinite detention itself qualifies as "torture" as defined by the UN Convention Against Torture.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 02-08-2012 12:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 02-08-2012 12:31 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 39 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 12:34 PM Rahvin has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 397 (651597)
02-08-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rahvin
02-08-2012 12:29 PM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
Yup, and at 15 I'm not sure that qualifies as a "child".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 02-08-2012 12:29 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 12:35 PM jar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 39 of 397 (651599)
02-08-2012 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rahvin
02-08-2012 12:29 PM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
If only america kept video-tape records when america tortured "suspects." Whoops . . .
Justice Dept. Says CIA Destroyed 92 Torture Tapes
Free Inmate & Jail Records

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 02-08-2012 12:29 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Rahvin, posted 02-08-2012 1:21 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 40 of 397 (651601)
02-08-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
02-08-2012 12:31 PM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
So, you are pro-child torture if the child is 15 or older?
How about 14?
Is 12 old enough for torture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 02-08-2012 12:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 02-08-2012 12:43 PM dronestar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 397 (651604)
02-08-2012 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by dronestar
02-08-2012 12:35 PM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
Too sophomoric and funny.
What have I posted that suggests I favor torture under any conditions or do you just enjoy misrepresenting what others post?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 12:35 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 12:50 PM jar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 42 of 397 (651606)
02-08-2012 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
02-08-2012 12:43 PM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
Jar writes:
What have I posted that suggests I favor torture under any conditions or do you just enjoy misrepresenting what others post?
It seemed to me you made an issue solely of the age of a torture suspect. My error, my apologies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 02-08-2012 12:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 02-08-2012 1:01 PM dronestar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 397 (651608)
02-08-2012 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by dronestar
02-08-2012 12:50 PM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
I made an issue of you claiming that was an example of child torture.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 12:50 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 1:20 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 397 (651610)
02-08-2012 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Straggler
02-08-2012 11:44 AM


Sorry you didn't get a pony
When bandying around the slogan Yes we can
"Yes We Can" strikes me as exactly the sort of pragmatism and broad focus on movements that I was referring to, so I'm struggling to understand why you see this as evidence of Obama's messianic idealism.
You're giving examples of Obama saying "I can't do it alone" as evidence that he promised to do it all by himself. What gives?
But I would suggest you are giving them too much credit if you think that is the sole reason for people’s disillusionment.
I don't think that and I didn't say that they did.
There are a lot of people who do feel disappointed.
Yeah, Obama didn't give them a pony so they're feeling the crushing sting of disappointment in Chocolate Jesus. The question is whether that represents some sort of betrayal of Obama's campaign message, or whether that's a function of a large number of people who are deeply, deeply immature about governance. Barack Obama ran for President, not for Father Figure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2012 11:44 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Straggler, posted 02-08-2012 4:58 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 45 of 397 (651611)
02-08-2012 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by dronestar
02-08-2012 12:29 PM


Re: continued from The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
"Rendition" is not a synonym for "torture."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 12:29 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by dronestar, posted 02-08-2012 1:24 PM crashfrog has replied

  
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