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Author Topic:   A Problem With the Literal Interpretation of Scripture
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 196 of 304 (652605)
02-14-2012 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by jrchamblee
02-14-2012 6:14 PM


jrchamblee writes:
The only answer I have for this is that when Adam an Eve were evicted from the Garden of Eden, The bible says it is appointed for man to Die,it does not say how man had to die ? Or by who ?
Yes but do you want to base your whole theology on the first bit of Genesis. The gospel message of Jesus is very clear that we are called down a very different road of humble love and kindness. Remember, "blessed are the peacemakers"?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

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saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 197 of 304 (652985)
02-17-2012 6:23 AM


Joshuas long day
Probably fits best here.
The following quote describes immensely well the integrity of biblical literalists.
quote:
Lets now discuss Joshua’s long day. Certainly this is going too far, to actually think that the sun stood still that long, in spite of the totally predictable, finely balanced and very complex pattern of movement of the heavenly bodies. But on the other hand, how much do we know about the options that an infinite God has at his disposal? And maybe that sun trick wasn’t so disruptive after all. If I try to imagine how it could be done if I had no physical limits, but was not allowed to influence the movement of the sun or moon or the earth, here is a speculative suggestion. A system of giant mirrors could be used to deflect the sun’s image, so that from a human perspective the sun did stand still. Then later the mirrors could slowly move the sun back into its normal schedule. Did God do it that way? Of course we have no idea (God is certainly much more creative than us), but this scenario just illustrates how utterly futile it is for finite humans to think we can decide what God can or cannot do. He created the laws of nature and he knows how to use them to accomplish his will.
How deep does your head need to be inside your a$$ to even consider something like that. I mean, really. How rotten does your belief have to be to retort to such innovations? :|
Unfortunately the entire creo/ID side is based on willful ignorance and deception. It has zero integrity and every single proponent of creo/ID is either intelligently negligent or downright evil. I see nothing even remotely admirable in that.
That quote was copied from PZ Myersblog.
Shaving with a baseball bat

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by GDR, posted 02-17-2012 11:27 AM saab93f has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 198 of 304 (653010)
02-17-2012 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by saab93f
02-17-2012 6:23 AM


Re: Joshuas long day
saab93f writes:
The following quote describes immensely well the integrity of biblical literalists.
The trouble is that the quote you use only points out the mental contortions that some go through when they try and turn the Bible into something it was never intended to be. Frankly however that example is harmless. If someone wants to believe that God installed a number of mirrors around the cosmos in order to trick us then who cares. Actually I think that most fundamentalists don't read the Bible with any degree of objectivity in that they just study it with their preconceived notions and ignore the obvious fact that there are contradictions as a result of having different authors often with different points of view.
The problem from my perspective is that it turns the God made known to us through Jesus Christ into something that I as a Christian don't recognize. It turns God into an entity that sanctions genocide and someone who wants his followers to stone individuals to death for minor infractions and yet tells us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. What kind of god is that?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by saab93f, posted 02-17-2012 6:23 AM saab93f has replied

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 Message 199 by saab93f, posted 02-17-2012 2:35 PM GDR has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 199 of 304 (653029)
02-17-2012 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by GDR
02-17-2012 11:27 AM


Re: Joshuas long day
quote:
The trouble is that the quote you use only points out the mental contortions that some go through when they try and turn the Bible into something it was never intended to be. Frankly however that example is harmless.
I guess you are somewhat right but to me that quote by Leonard Brand (Leonard R. Brand - Wikipedia) is a brilliant example of how far people are willing to go to try and twist facts to make the Bible/God look good. He is not the only one - it is just that quite a few people believe in the Flood and are willing to distort truth accordingly, even more believe in literal Genesis and...
Harmless it may be but it portrays the same lack of integrity as the Wedge-strategy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by GDR, posted 02-17-2012 11:27 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by GDR, posted 02-17-2012 2:56 PM saab93f has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 200 of 304 (653031)
02-17-2012 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by saab93f
02-17-2012 2:35 PM


Re: Joshuas long day
saab93f writes:
I guess you are somewhat right but to me that quote by Leonard Brand (Leonard R. Brand - Wikipedia) is a brilliant example of how far people are willing to go to try and twist facts to make the Bible/God look good. He is not the only one - it is just that quite a few people believe in the Flood and are willing to distort truth accordingly, even more believe in literal Genesis and...
Harmless it may be but it portrays the same lack of integrity as the Wedge-strategy.
I know that it often gets categorized as lying or as a lack of integrity but I think it is more just an unfortunate act of misplaced beliefs. For whatever reason there is a culture that has evolved around the Bible that insists that it be understood as factually true and so people like Brand start off with that premise. It is classic circular reasoning. I don't think he is being dishonest, I just think that he has started off with a false premise.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by saab93f, posted 02-17-2012 2:35 PM saab93f has replied

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hugenot
Junior Member (Idle past 4416 days)
Posts: 7
From: palm beach gardnes, fl
Joined: 02-13-2012


Message 201 of 304 (653040)
02-17-2012 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by jrchamblee
02-14-2012 6:14 PM


Sin is the transgression of the Law. God is merciful, but even in our society someone who commits lets say mass murder is killed, so he does not go out to kill more people!
For the other peopl's safety.
But God is merciful and many people who did bad things lived on, Moses killed someone, Paul helped pharisees to kill one of the apostle!
Forbidden

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saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 202 of 304 (653047)
02-17-2012 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by GDR
02-17-2012 2:56 PM


Re: Joshuas long day
quote:
I don't think he is being dishonest, I just think that he has started off with a false premise.
Im sorry but I really think that you are being too kind to Mr Brand and his ilk.
Mr Brand holds a degree in biology so he cannot be a total ignoramus. Thus he has to be a decepter by choice. I see absolutely nothing worth explaining or tolerating in their doings.
If they would just tell these stories to each other in some huts it would be tolerable as far as the society is concerned but no...they build Creation "Museums" and Ark Experiences and politicians are polite towards them when in fact they should be ridiculed and mocked to no end.
And to top that all, it is generally understood to be impolite or disrespectful to require them to prove their stories or tell them that creation science is an oxymoron. The public would be done the greatest service when the spade is called a spade and their lies would be exposed bigtime.

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Lone77Star
Member (Idle past 4406 days)
Posts: 9
From: Cebu, Philippines
Joined: 02-18-2012


Message 203 of 304 (653116)
02-18-2012 9:09 AM


Hidden Wisdom -- The Literalists' Nightmare
@GDR, great OP. You make a good point.
Certainly, there were many hands in writing and editing the Bible--putting all the pieces together.
Taking the Bible literally, one misses so much. And one could go crazy with the obvious contradictions and lame solutions to attempt to patch together the Byzantine, literal landscape.
One of the key things, beyond love of God and one another, recommended by Yehoshua of Nazareth was an attitude of humility. He chastised the Pharisees because they lacked it. Humility seems to be the antidote to the false self (ego) we must eliminate in order to gain everlasting life. In fact, humility appears to be so important that it seems that the writers of some parts of the Bible (e.g. Genesis) attempted to elicit this quality in the reader before they could discover its secrets. It was as if understanding could not have been achieved with arrogance, or a know-it-all attitude. Are the literalists being both arrogant and lazy? I've certainly done both, and it seems to resonate here.
For instance, God in Genesis 2 warns Adam that he will surely die on the day he eats of the forbidden tree. But did he and Eve literally, physically die on that day? Nope! In fact, they were escorted out of the Garden and Adam lived for several hundred years after the Garden. But was Adam in the Garden the same as Adam outside of the Garden? Were they the same person?
Genesis 5:2 states that Adam was both male and female (a "them" instead of a "him").
There are many more such clues which call attention to themselves and lead to a most interesting interpretation -- the discovery of a biblical timeline compatible with those of science. Imagine that! Creation scientists will go "ape" over the idea that their condemnation of traditional science has been a hollow effort all this time.
The seemingly outrageous longevity of the early patriarchs is also something of a "bone of contention." But if Adam in Genesis 5:2 can be a group (tribe), then each of the ages of those Genesis 5 patriarchs can be symbolic for the longevity of those eponymous tribes.
What is interesting in my research is that, even though the new date for Adam overshoots the current minimum age of humanity per anthropologists (~200,000 years; and there are likely many more bones yet to be discovered), the new date for Noah's Flood pinpoints a rather intriguing target for that event. And it illuminates rather potently the purpose of God for which the Flood was a protective measure. It seems that the last many thousands of years have been a massive rescue mission -- to rescue the children of God lost so long ago in the Garden.
God's children were created in His image (Genesis 1:26); and God is not Homo sapiens!

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by GDR, posted 02-18-2012 6:31 PM Lone77Star has replied
 Message 208 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-20-2012 2:50 PM Lone77Star has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 204 of 304 (653161)
02-18-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Lone77Star
02-18-2012 9:09 AM


Re: Hidden Wisdom -- The Literalists' Nightmare
HI Lone77Star
Welcome to EvC.
It seems to me that you too are trying to take the Bible literally while taking a different approach to the creation story than other literalists. It is still the same issue.
Look at what Jesus taught. He talked about love, forgiveness, mercy, truth etc. If that is what is important to God do you think that He cares in the slightest about what we believe about the creation of the Earth. Sure it's interesting but it's science, it' isn't theology.
This whole idea of making the Christian faith all about the Bible instead of about Jesus winds up with a Christianity that IMHO wouldn't be recognized by either Jesus or Paul. Certainly we primarily learn about Jesus from the Bible and that is central to our faith. I agree that God touches our hearts through the reading of the Bible. However, that does not mean that the Bible is dictated by God nor does it mean that everything declared by the hundreds, (probably thousands) of people that make the Bible what it is today is inerrant either historically or even theologically.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Lone77Star, posted 02-18-2012 9:09 AM Lone77Star has replied

Replies to this message:
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Lone77Star
Member (Idle past 4406 days)
Posts: 9
From: Cebu, Philippines
Joined: 02-18-2012


Message 205 of 304 (653193)
02-19-2012 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by GDR
02-18-2012 6:31 PM


Re: Hidden Wisdom -- The Literalists' Nightmare
Thanks for the warm welcome, GDR. Glad to be here.
I find it interesting that you refer to my take as a "literal" one. In fact, I find that quite hilarious. I thought of my approach as decidedly non-literal. Can we take anything as literal in the Bible? Why not? But I wouldn't call it a "literal" approach to take those parts which might be literal as literal, and those parts which might be metaphor as metaphor. I'd call that a more balanced approach, hopefully approaching Truth which is likely far beyond "literal" or "metaphor."
I remember reading somewhere that the giant of science, Isaac Newton, also entertained the phlogiston theory of combustion; completely bogus. Perhaps it seemed like a good idea at the time. Newton also researched his own biblical timeline, arriving at 4000 BC, instead of Ussher's 4004 BC for the start of everything. Boy, times have changed.
You seem to admit that there is something of value in the Bible, but also find something troubling within it. That sounds like a perfect opportunity. Why? Because it could lead to humility, if you let it--the kind of attitude which allows for discovery. Perhaps you already have this. Every good scientists has this, at least in their limited area of inquiry.
Don't get caught up in the frustration. Allow the answers to come to you from that quiet, still voice within. Inspiration can strike when you're not looking or grasping; but when you're letting go.

Good Start

I think in your OP you take it too literally. You may be missing a bigger picture by holding onto that literal meaning. I remember one passage (in Samuel, I think) where a prophet is told not to eat while on his mission; but another prophet insists he come in, tricking him into thinking that God has re-written his marching orders. He gives in, but later is eaten by a lion. What's the lesson, here? Don't give in to someone else's "revelation?" But we can even take that too literally.
Would Yehoshua of Nazareth have done what Moses did? I think you implied that he wouldn't have, because our Lord's ministry is based upon love. But why would God wipe out all life on Earth with Noah's Flood? Why would Yehoshua take a whip to the money changers in the temple? Could these also have been acts of love? Certainly, they could. As a literalist, these look like acts of wrath or rage.
But when you realize that God's children look like Him and that He is not Homo sapiens, then the killing of Homo sapiens bodies takes on a different meaning altogether. Because the work of Moses was imperfectly performed, he could not cross the River Jordan. All the miracles he performed from the power of God were tainted with perhaps a touch of ego.

Humility Required, but the Right Kind

I think Christianity must, of necessity, be about the Bible. It has to be. But because humans can create so many conflicting interpretations, we have to include utter humility so that we may let go of cherished beliefs (interpretations) and grow toward a greater understanding and ultimately prepare the way for receiving God's Truth. I don't think anyone currently on Earth has gotten that far, yet. At least, I don't think I've met them or read of them.
So many biblical fundamentalists think humanity and the universe are only 6000 years old. I agree that this is not theology. But it reveals arrogance which is the opposite of the required humility. It reveals ego which is the source of all evil, and the master of this world. Of course, God could create it all in a week--all 6,000 years ago--including all of the deception required to make the universe look billions of years older than it really is. It's His universe. He can do it any way He wants. Personally, I think the universe really is 13.7 billion years old. Science studies the products (fruits) of His creation.
When I discuss this "history" aspect of biblical lore, I'm pursuing a curiosity, but also attempting to break a deadlock of evil proportions. Ego is an equal-opportunity deceiver. Christians who delude themselves with a pitched battle against science are following the master of this world. That breaks my heart.
Moses had his own inspiration. It wasn't perfect. That can be a lesson to us all. We can approach such perfection ourselves (especially on the day of perfection, Sabbath) by understanding the pros and cons of each part of the Bible.
Ego is so very tricky. The lessons of the Bible prepare us for unraveling that trickiness and finding the truth that will set us free. So, please... please! Don't dismiss the Bible because of the problems which attempt to elicit the needed humility. They're there for a reason. Let them work on you. Then let inspiration of the Holy spirit flow.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 206 of 304 (653213)
02-19-2012 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Lone77Star
02-19-2012 4:28 AM


Re: Hidden Wisdom -- The Literalists' Nightmare
Lone77 writes:
I think Christianity must, of necessity, be about the Bible. It has to be. But because humans can create so many conflicting interpretations, we have to include utter humility so that we may let go of cherished beliefs (interpretations) and grow toward a greater understanding and ultimately prepare the way for receiving God's Truth. I don't think anyone currently on Earth has gotten that far, yet. At least, I don't think I've met them or read of them.
Literalism is a no-win argument. Some believe that Gods truth is written on the heart, not to be found (at least originating from) any book. Faith * Belief, however are just that. They have no way to be proven through evidence. Which is why I usually stay out of the Science Forums.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 207 of 304 (653372)
02-20-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by foreveryoung
01-05-2012 2:48 PM


Re: A thought
There was a very good reason for slaughtering the whole community. Why do you question God's motivations?
I question the morality of someone who would not question the motivation for slaughtering a whole community.
The purpose of israel was not supposed to be bringing a message of peace and love. That is you putting your own goals as God's goals. The purpose of israel was to let the world know who the true god was. It was to put a glaring contrast between Jehovah and baal or ra or whoever they had as god's back then.
If there is objective morality , rather than situational morality, the slaughter of people would be just as evil then as it is now. Under objective morality, something is either right or it is wrong.
What I was taught about the stories about the slaughter is that the Torah used exaggeration and such. Back in the day, the Israel's were a relatively small group that was trying to 'fight for survival', and stories like these were something like a beta fish puffing itself up to make it look bigger.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 208 of 304 (653384)
02-20-2012 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Lone77Star
02-18-2012 9:09 AM


Re: Hidden Wisdom -- The Literalists' Nightmare
the new date for Noah's Flood pinpoints a rather intriguing target for that event.
We know from both geology and biology, that since humans have existed, the planet has never been covered with water. Plain and simple: The (global) Flood never actually happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Lone77Star, posted 02-18-2012 9:09 AM Lone77Star has replied

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hugenot
Junior Member (Idle past 4416 days)
Posts: 7
From: palm beach gardnes, fl
Joined: 02-13-2012


Message 209 of 304 (653724)
02-23-2012 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by jrchamblee
02-14-2012 6:14 PM


The goal for God is not for people to die. God wants everyone to live eternally in Heaven happy and healthy!
Death is a very strange thing, it was never seen throughout the eternal ages in heaven before the earth was created!
But in a place where everything will be bliss: Heaven
No sinner nor wicked person can be there, and if someone chooses to cling to sin they chose not to go to heaven!
Forbidden

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Lone77Star
Member (Idle past 4406 days)
Posts: 9
From: Cebu, Philippines
Joined: 02-18-2012


Message 210 of 304 (654794)
03-04-2012 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by New Cat's Eye
02-20-2012 2:50 PM


Re: Hidden Wisdom -- The Literalists' Nightmare
quote:
We know from both geology and biology, that since humans have existed, the planet has never been covered with water. Plain and simple: The (global) Flood never actually happened.
@Catholic Scientist, I know exactly what you mean, but there are some problems with your statement.
First, though, I admit that Noah's Flood might not literally have been a water flood; it may be symbolic for something for which there was (and may still be) no adequate vocabulary. That shouldn't stop us from investigating the possible meanings.

Problems with the claim

"We know" is an interesting generality. Generalities tend to hide truth rather than reveal. Like, "everyone knows that!" Does "everyone" really? Do we really know that there was never a worldwide flood from geology and biology? Or do you mean, instead, that we have not yet found evidence of such a thing? You see, behind your claim is an argument to ignorance (a logical fallacy).
How would geology show evidence of a worldwide flood? If it was all rain, then there would be a heck of a lot of erosion until (but not after) the land being eroded was covered with water. But if most of the water was added to Earth in the depths of the oceans (created, transported, gated a la 'Star Gate,' etc.), then geologically, there might be little or no evidence. And if little, then there is a possibility that such evidence has not yet been found. Arrogance suggests that we've found everything there is to find, so the flood never happened.
What if we find pockets of salt water in the Greenland ice sheet or Antarctic ice sheet for 28,000 BC? I guess we'd have to be lucky to core at that exact place. Would the scientists even notice? Would they report it, or would it merely be a messy detail overlooked in their neat and tidy report?

Problems with the Flood

Certainly, the Flood has many problems. Where did the water come from and go (more than 2x the amount currently on Earth)? How did freshwater fish find their way back to their streams and lakes after surviving months in salt water? How did plants survive the long inundation? How did coastal species survive (they depend on their ecosystem, near the surface)? How would glaciers fare the inundation? How did one man gather all species? After 300 years of classification, we're still discovering thousands of species a year!

Where God is Concerned

Science does great in the realm of the study of nature. It deals with elements and qualities of "continuity." Creation, however, is discontinuous in nature. Things like forgiveness, inspiration, walking on water and parting the sea are all acts discontinuous in nature. They ignore the continuity of physical law (not science). Physical law is not science; this is what science studies. Continuity gives science something to study.
Where God is concerned, all physical law is subject to suspension, revision or outright breaking. Water from a rock in the desert, manna from heaven and similar miracles break with the continuity that science studies.
So, what really happened in Genesis 6-9? We could say that it's all myth and leave it at that, but where's the fun in that?
Did God use a force that looked like water? Did He use actual water, but took care of all of the apparent problems we see from a scientific angle? Yes, the Flood story could be entirely myth and a morality tale -- a warning wrapped in symbolism. But where God is concerned, all options are on the table.

Scientific Paradigm

The bottom line is, we don't know what it means or if the Flood really happened.
What happened to good old scientific skepticism? You have to realize that skepticism can be aimed not only at the Flood, but also at the attitudes toward the Flood; i.e. skeptical of one's own skepticism. Too many conclusions are drawn in the name of skepticism and that's just poor logic and poor science. Regrettably, scientists do it all the time. The "Clovis first" dogma is only one example. Scientists have egos just like everyone else and lose sight of the fact that skepticism is the wrong paradigm.
Scientific method warns against bias. This includes preconceived notions. And yet science seems to cling to skepticism as their number one tool. Skepticism contains the very potent bias of doubt. This tool has proven useful, at times, but it's a very sloppy and imperfect tool.
What's the right tool? The right paradigm? Restraint and humility! Don't jump to conclusions. Hypothesize by all means, but skepticism -- the way most use it -- has conclusion written all over it. It's got "I've concluded this, but you can prove me wrong." And when skepticism turns ugly, it becomes completely and entirely subjective -- unsupported dismissiveness (as in arguments to ignorance), and self-indulgent ridicule (as in the treatment of scientists who dared dig below the Clovis horizon).
The Flood never happened? Perhaps it did happen, but we simply have as yet found only one piece of evidence: a species which died out at the real Flood date -- a species which matches the Genesis 6 description of "daughters of men." And if we understand God's reason for something like the Flood or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, then we might understand why it was necessary to wipe out one very specific species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-20-2012 2:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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