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Author | Topic: The Awesome Obama Thread II | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Strag writes: Then why do so many people feel so disenchanted and disillusioned? Well, two possible answers: 1. The voting public wasn't paying attention to SENATOR Obama's voting record. The ignorant public ERRONEOUSLY thought "change" and "hope" (and ponies?) were being offered, so they now feel disenchanted and disillusioned. 2. Actually, there is no disenchantment and no disillusion. Some of the voting public WAS paying attention to SENATOR Obama's voting record. Some of the public knew NO change or hope were being offered. However, to be sure, ponies were given, just not to the 99%ers, as we'll see . . . Let's look at Obama the SENATOR and see what type of man he was BEFORE taking the White House. 1. As a SENATOR, Obama (a supposed "professor of constitutional law") clearly showed that he supported illegal, unconstitutional actions; while a SENATOR he voted FOR illegal wiretapping (HR 6304). It retro-actively took criminality off of telecommunication companies AND Bush Jr. This action SHOULD have been a HUGE red flag for ALL voters of things to come. 2. As a SENATOR, Obama clearly showed that he SUPPORTED impeachable offenses:The 35 Articles of Impeachment by Kucinich was never supported by Obama. I ask, exactly who was surprised that the war crimes committed by the Bush Administration was never investigated by Obama? People expecting ponies? Obama took an oath to uphold the constitution and laws, but that only meant for the 99%, not for the other 1%. Efforts to impeach George W. Bush - Wikipedia Not only didn't Obama assign investigators to Bush Jr. war crimes, President Obama ALSO went out of his way to PROTECT Bush Jr. . . .
quote: Obama and GOPers Worked Together to Kill Bush Torture Probe – Mother Jones 3. As a SENATOR, Obama clearly showed that his real masters are on Wall Street.
quote:zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information. The company Obama keeps are 1%ers. The criminal bailout and the bonus pay for CEOs represented theft on the largest scale ever witnessed. Once in the white house, why would anyone think Obama would ever investigate his close friend's crimes? 4. As a SENATOR, Obama's voting record clearly showed he was on the corporate 1%'s side:
quote:zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information. 5. As a SENATOR, Obama voted for every bill that funded illegal and immoral wars. He may have stated that the Iraq was a "dumb" war, but there wasn't a bill funding the death of innocent Iraqi/Afghani women and children that Obama didn't RUSH to approve. Indeed, Obama desperately tried to EXTEND the illegal and immoral Iraqi war occupation beyond Bush Jr.'s status of forces agreement. But, fortunately, the Iraqi's would not allow continuing immunity from persecution of war crimes (like in Fallujah) by american troops (demanded by Obama). If a person is disappointed with Obama's actions as the president, then doesn't that simply mean they weren't paying attention to Obama's actions as a SENATOR? More to come . . . How many impeachable crimes has Obama committed compared to Bush Jr.?zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Who ever said Obama doesn't deliver ponies?
quote: quote: quote:
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Perhaps the analyzing of a joke is best done on another thread. Maybe some-one can re-open the thread "Humor and Gender". There was some nifty forensic work on a "rape joke" sometime back. (The dissection became so involved, it sometime resembled a team of scientists working on the Zapruder film.)
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
No problem Oni. I think this thread is strong enough to include some off-topic remarks.
(Allah knows, I am not exactly innocent of the charge.)
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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quote: quote: U.S. Sergeant Kills 16 Afghan Civilians, 9 of Them Children - The New York Times
Obama wanted to keep american forces in Iraq beyond the new year. But the Iraqis wouldn't allow Obama's demand for immunity for american soldiers to carry out atrocities against women and children like the above. So, who STILL believes american troops urinating on corpses, burning Korans, and murdering woman/children are winning the hearts and minds of the people in the middle-east? Who STILL believes american presence in Afghanistan is accomplishing something good?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Panda writes: So, because Iraq refused to give permission to allow US troops to abuse and kill it's citizens, Obama sent the US troops to Afganistan. Panda, you might have a slight time-line problem.
Panda writes: Does this mean that Afgahnistan has given permission for its civilians to be abused and murdered? Permission? PERMISSION? America doesn't need no stinking permission to carry out atrocities in Afghanistan. ("Obama to bombardier, Obama to bombardier, increase drone attacks on wedding and funeral parties")
Panda writes: Well, it was good enough for George Bush. Well, if George Jr. is Obama's moral equivalent, . . . alrighty then. (No wonder so many americans approve of Obama) Edited by dronester, : added snark. Well, added MORE snark. Edited by dronester, : clarity
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
P writes: I definitely have a problem with your timeline: it makes no sense The person who believes "So, because Iraq refused to give permission to allow US troops to abuse and kill it's citizens, Obama sent the US troops to Afganistan" is a correct chronological time-line, also believes MY time-line is incorrect. Ok.
P writes: Which would make that just a baseless assertion with only the most trivial of connections to the Afghan atrocity. I am sure the parents of the murdered children feel the same, trivial, way.
P writes: Damn those powerful Iraqis!They can make the US bend to their every whim! Yeah, so powerful are the Iraqis, even the whim of preventing the illegal and immoral invasion that killed up to one million innocent women and children was thwarted.
P writes: It seems that you wanted to shout about Obama but instead found a single soldier committing murder. Yeah, so far in this thread I only evidenced this ONE piece of information.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
CS writes: Seriously, by default now, I consider the opposite of what you claim to be the truth. I think the truth is you are handsome, moral, and your personal hygiene beyond reproach.
Drone writes: Who STILL believes american presence in Afghanistan is accomplishing something good? From that to YOUR spin. You have not addressed my primary topic, instead:
CS writes: You spin stuff SOOO much that I cannot believe anything you type anymore. It feels I am the only one who is absolutely horrified about the atrocities committed by the american government/troops. The drone attacks have increased under Obama. I am repulsed. American aid still goes to nations with a human abuse/human rights violations. I am repulsed. Instead of American taxes going towards education and health care, taxes goes toward cluster bombs and weapons (america is the leading weapons seller of the WORLD). I am repulsed. Yet, people declare me unjustified in my intelligence or emotions. Wow. CS and Rahvin, but the one thing I don't understand is why you or other americans are not concerned. Tell me CS and Rahvin, on a scale of 1-10, how sad are you that an american troop murdered the Afghani children? There is no reason for him to be occupying Afghanistan. But under Obama's orders, troops are staying in a place where there is no respect for Americans. Corpse urinators, wedding/funeral attacks, murdering children all flow from the fact that the american government demands that they be there. Why? Ok. I STRONGLY believe that for SOME people who support Obama (at least as the lesser of two evils), my continuing anti-Obama message disturbs their cognitive dissonance. They know, deep down, I am right and that they SHOULD do something about their support. Perhaps they don't know how, or they are too lazy. But regardless, it bugs them to their core. Their conscience prefers I'd just shut up. I get this. Ok, so MAYBE my message is not working for some of these people. Are my messages at least connecting to the silent forum participants? What about just the lurkers? I don't know. For the wall street protesters, the first stage was to inform about the injustices as Americans are pretty clueless as they get most of their info from corporate media. The second stage is the actions. Am I at least enlightening some who only get their news from Fox News? OTOH, if my postings are UNANIMOUSLY viewed as negative postings, can I temporarily open this thread up to CONSTRUCTIVE criticisms of my Obama postings? Let it be known, I've asked.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
P writes: And the person that quote mines my replies will misrepresent my position. Curiously, the first time I "quote-mined" your reply, you didn't mention it.
P writes: So, now you claim the opposite? So you are NOW acknowleging that the Iraqis are not that powerful? Consistent much?
P writes: You have somehow mixed up your claim about Iraq with how the victims of a soldier murderer in Afghanistan feels. Well, you almost got it. The invasions of the Iraq and Afghani wars were/are immoral and illegal. Therefore every foreign troop that kills there is a murderer, everything that flows from that event is connected. This was the findings of the Nuremberg trials. E.g. Germany immorally and illegally invades Poland. German troops kill woman and children. Tell, me what is the difference? I find it strange that this premise is so difficult to comprehend.
P writes: You have not evidenced anything else. Maybe you could start by showing how Obama bears any responsibility for that crime? Please re-read the first Obama thread and this thread from the beginning. It is unfair for you to come into the middle of the picture and ask me to do a re-cap just for you.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Jar writes: The issue is not whether anyone approves of what the current US policy . . . Arrrgh, you are killing me Jar!
Jar writes: The Iraq and Afghanistan invasions happened. Jar, would you please directly answer THIS question: "Did the German invasion of Poland just happen"? Requesting some non-American POV here. Anybody? (Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?)
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Rahvin writes: crashfrog has swayed me on a great many of my complaints with the Obama administration . . . Then I respectfully ask you, to ask yourself, why Crash didn't respond to my post Message 158 (or other similar posts while Obama was a SENATOR).
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Jar writes: The German invasion of Poland happened. Very good Jar, very good. Now, this is where the questioning becomes a little difficult . . . Was the German invasion into Poland moral/legal? Take your time Jar, take your time. You're doing wonderful so far.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Ok, [dronester takes a deep breath, senses the air is suddenly not so stale, . . . a sunshine ray appears through the cracked shutters] . . .
Rahvin writes: not every outrageous event that occurs on "Obama's watch" is the actual moral responsibility of the Obama administration. Sigh. Yes, yes, yes, you are correct. It would probably do well for me to publicly and explicitly admit that Obama is NOT responsible for EVERY atrocity on his watch: "I dronester, being of sound mind (well close enough) and body, declares that Obama is NOT responsible for EVERY atrocity on his watch." Perhaps CS can now respect me again?
Rahvin writes: Your recent posting history has come across as, forgive me, hyperventilating "Obama is teh devil" ranting to a degree that would better fit a birther/Muslim-conspiracy nutcase in tone I asked before, how sad are you that innocent women and children are dying from weapons of the US military. CS honestly wrote a mere 2 on the 1-10 scale. If my reporting of events also registers a mere two from you, than I can imagine my "ranting" to be very inappropriate to you. But I believe my "rantings" are proportionately on target. I should think you would FIRST ask IF the topic warrants any "ranting"? Innocent women and children are, perhaps, being murdered by the US military every day. Often it is done in some backwater location that will NEVER be reported. Drones attacking innocent people at weddings and funerals, colourful bomblets that attract children, overnight raids that kill families indiscriminately, rendition locations that are completely invisible to the public, etc., etc., etc. I ask again, respectfully, if this isn't something to "rant" about, what exactly is? If you read/listen to the corporate news, I suppose being caused a "slut" by a radio personality is a much worse offense? (by reporting ONLY Limbaugh type of crap in the news, the 1%ers win by not having the 99%ers informed of their best interests. By fielding the current cast of republican side-tracking losers, the 1%ers will eventually still win from highly distracted voters. Crazy as a fox). But how's this for adjusting my debating strategy, in the future, I will only rant about injustices/atrocities/human right violations that Obama previously SUPPORTED while a senator. As Mod as explained, if Obama DELIBERATELY created conditions that fosters atrocities BEFORE BECOMING PRESIDENT, then yes, I will blame Obama. This is the specific argument that Crash continually disregards from me. See Message 158!!!
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
C'mon Jar, you were doing so good, try again, . . . concentrate, . . . concentrate . . .
Was the German invasion into Poland moral/legal?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Rahvin, thanks for yesterday's replies.
Rahvin writes: I can't even say the Afghanistan invasion was wrong, because there really were terrorist training camps and a large amount of al Qaeda infrastructure there. These are the reasons why I believe invading Afghanistan was wrong. 1. 16 of the 19 9/11 highjackers were Saudis. ALSO, Al Qaeda was a terrorist group, based in . . . Saudi Arabia. If invading Afghanistan was correct, then why hadn't Bush Jr. or you ever suggested we invade Saudi Arabia? Not a rhetorical question, please answer. 2. Yes, I understand Osama bin Laden was in Afghanistan. But as Bush Jr. said (below), Bin Laden wasn't important. Before the american invasion, the Afghan Taliban government asked Bush Jr. for evidence that Osama was involved in 9/11 BEFORE they would give Osama up. Since the Taliban government wasn't keen on protecting Al-Queda members in exchange for an assault on their country, that was probably a legitimate request. It would have alleviated drone strikes, invasions, death and destruction. But, remember, like in Iraq, the american government NEEDED an excuse to invade Afghanistan to gain hegemony for the energy resources, so the Bush Jr. administration didn't even followup on the Afghan government's request. That moment was extremely instructive to how little "terrorism" really meant to Bush/Cheney (outside of its fear factor to the american people):
quote: Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 3. With Bush/Cheney at the helm, did anybody seriously think the invasion of Afghanistan was gonna turn out good? I mean, really? Not a rhetorical question. 4. The proofs in the pudding. Afghanistan HAS turned out to be a clusterf**k. Big surprise eh? Tens of thousands dead, massive tax money squandered, and the cause of an INCREASE in hatred/terrorist risks in the world. The invasion of Afghanistan was really, really, really bad and WRONG. 5. As a SENATOR, Obama voted FOR funding the Aghani war EVERY time. As president, Obama has not only extended the money and time duration in Afghanistan, but also has enlarged military forces there. The result, constant drones buzzing in the air and random night time raids into family's homes. For one moment, put yourself in an Afghanis place: Can you imagine every waking moment watching the sky, waiting for a drone missile to deliberately or accidentally target you or a family member or friend. And even if the missile targets a stranger, suppose the "collateral damage" is your child or parent? And then at night, random night raids. Can you imagine your every sleeping moment waiting for your front door to be kicked in and your family assaulted, deliberately or accidentally? I imagine this as hell. Can you imagine it as anything different? Not a rhetorical question. These are the reasons/evidence why I believe invading Aghanistan was wrong.
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