Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolution is not Abiogenesis
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1 of 251 (653545)
02-22-2012 11:38 AM


There have been at least 3 fora in the last month where it has been claimed that evolution isn't true because it doesn't incorporate how life started.
I thought it might be useful to start a thread on how scientists explain the difference between the Theory of Evolution, the various ideas about how life started here on earth and why religious believers find it so hard to grasp what scientists think is a simple and obvious point.
That point being that the ToE starts with life whilst abiogenesis is how life starts.
Consequently, the ToE is agnostic to the cause of life and works independently of that cause.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Modulous, posted 02-23-2012 7:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 251 (653547)
02-22-2012 12:09 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Evolution is not Abiogenesis thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 3 of 251 (653548)
02-22-2012 12:53 PM


Analogies
It might be useful to use examples from other areas of science.
For example, we understand how chemicals can react and produce new molecules. Most of us learned about this in high school. We have a very detailed and natural explanation for how chemicals change. However, we don't have a good theory that explains the ultimate origin of those chemicals. This theory would need to explain how our universe came about, and there really isn't a solid scientific theory that explains this.
So does this mean that we need to throw out the theory that explains how chemicals react and change over time? According to creationists, we do need to throw it out because we lack a theory that explains the ultimate origin of matter.
This is the problem with the creationist argument. It requires us to throw out the knowledge we do have because we do not have all possible knowledge. Not knowing the ultimate origin of matter means that we need to throw out ALL scientific theories, according to creationist logic. This includes atomic theory, germ theory, relativity, gravity, etc.
As to abiogenesis and evolution specifically, the theory of evolution would not change one iota if we found that God magically poofed an RNA replicator into being which then evolved into the biodiversity we see today. The theory of evolution no more depends on the ultimate origin of life than our understanding of chemical interactions depends on the ultimate origin of matter.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 02-22-2012 1:37 PM Taq has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 4 of 251 (653551)
02-22-2012 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taq
02-22-2012 12:53 PM


Re: Analogies
Taq writes:
The theory of evolution no more depends on the ultimate origin of life than our understanding of chemical interactions depends on the ultimate origin of matter.
I suppose we'd better get this one on the table from the start because it's a deal breaker.
Those that say that evolution is not true because it doesn't incorporate how life started MUST give a credible answer to this question
How would the ToE be affected if a pair of replicating molecules got here by any of the different ways we can think of? Including:
1. God did it
2. A meteor brought it
3. Aliens planted it
4. Alphabet primordial soup cooked it up
5. any other idea
(It will be necessary for the creationist to put aside their belief that evolution isn't true and treat this as a puzzle in logic and reason.)
Edited by Tangle, : Improvement suggested by RAZD

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Taq, posted 02-22-2012 12:53 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 02-22-2012 6:27 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 6 by Trixie, posted 02-22-2012 6:58 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 109 by marc9000, posted 02-26-2012 8:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 251 (653577)
02-22-2012 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
02-22-2012 1:37 PM


quibbles
Hi Tangle, hope this takes off.
How would the ToE be affected if a pair of replicating molecules got here by the many different ways we can think of? Including:
1. God did it
2. A meteor brought it
3. Aliens planted it
4. Alphabet primordial soup cooked it up
5. any other idea
(It will be necessary for the creationist to put aside their belief that evolution isn't true and treat this as a puzzle in logic and reason.)
Or any one of the above ... ? [/quibble]
How would the ToE be affected if a pair of replicating molecules got here ...
Which doesn't mean that you have life, just molecules, not a cell structure yet, not a breeding population ... [/quibble]
If anyone wants to discuss where we are scientifically on the development of self replicating molecules see Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part II).
This would also be a good place to introduce what science says the ToE is ... feel free to borrow from Introduction to Evolution (which has not been promoted yet ).
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 02-22-2012 1:37 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 6 of 251 (653579)
02-22-2012 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
02-22-2012 1:37 PM


Re: Analogies
I find this very interesting. I've yet to hear how the ToE would be affected by the different possibilities. Give the number of times we've recently asked this question, I'm surprised that no-one has had a stab at it.
However, I note that this is in a Science forum so Buz won't be able to participate and he's the one that started the recent ball rolling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 02-22-2012 1:37 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by hooah212002, posted 02-22-2012 8:25 PM Trixie has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 7 of 251 (653585)
02-22-2012 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Trixie
02-22-2012 6:58 PM


Re: Analogies
However, I note that this is in a Science forum so Buz won't be able to participate and he's the one that started the recent ball rolling.
Depending on how masochistic you guys are feeling, you could petition Percy to get Buz the right to post in perhaps just this one topic?

"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Trixie, posted 02-22-2012 6:58 PM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Warthog, posted 02-22-2012 8:51 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 9 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-22-2012 8:57 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Warthog
Member (Idle past 3969 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


(1)
Message 8 of 251 (653588)
02-22-2012 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by hooah212002
02-22-2012 8:25 PM


Re: Analogies
quote:
Depending on how masochistic you guys are feeling, you could petition Percy to get Buz the right to post in perhaps just this one topic?
Absolutely. This is one that really demands a full quota of creationists. Otherwise, we'll all just end up agreeing with each other in a rational discussion...

Ignorance is a Tragedy
Willful Ignorance is a Sin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by hooah212002, posted 02-22-2012 8:25 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 02-22-2012 9:04 PM Warthog has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 9 of 251 (653589)
02-22-2012 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by hooah212002
02-22-2012 8:25 PM


Re: Analogies
I think we already just saw the full range of buz's contribution in the "Ten Signs" thread. He's a stick in the mud and he's not coming out until he's fossilized.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by hooah212002, posted 02-22-2012 8:25 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by hooah212002, posted 02-22-2012 9:06 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 251 (653590)
02-22-2012 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Warthog
02-22-2012 8:51 PM


Re: Analogies
There are times for seminars where discussion is free, but there is also a place for the lecture and tutorial where the student listens and takes notes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Warthog, posted 02-22-2012 8:51 PM Warthog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by hooah212002, posted 02-22-2012 9:07 PM jar has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 11 of 251 (653591)
02-22-2012 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tanypteryx
02-22-2012 8:57 PM


Re: Analogies
Na, we all already knew that long ago. It's a) fun to publicly humiliate him and show the error of his beliefs and b) he gets/keeps discussions going, even if it's for all the wrong reasons. Circlejerks are most certainly NOT fun. Hell, he's been pestering Percy for a shot maybe this can be it (even though we all know it will end in a catostrophic-shitstorm-gish-gallop).

"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-22-2012 8:57 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 12 of 251 (653592)
02-22-2012 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
02-22-2012 9:04 PM


Re: Analogies
EvC is neither.

"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 02-22-2012 9:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 02-22-2012 9:11 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 251 (653593)
02-22-2012 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by hooah212002
02-22-2012 9:07 PM


Re: Analogies
But it can be. It is a great place for those who actually do know to lecture and the rest of us simply read and learn.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by hooah212002, posted 02-22-2012 9:07 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 4161 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 14 of 251 (653594)
02-23-2012 12:05 AM


Is prebiotic evolution evolution?

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Coyote, posted 02-23-2012 12:31 AM Portillo has replied
 Message 16 by Warthog, posted 02-23-2012 12:36 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 39 by RAZD, posted 02-23-2012 8:54 AM Portillo has not replied
 Message 44 by Granny Magda, posted 02-23-2012 11:11 AM Portillo has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 15 of 251 (653595)
02-23-2012 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Portillo
02-23-2012 12:05 AM


Question
Let me ask you a question.
Why do creationists insist that abiogenesis is a part of evolution?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Portillo, posted 02-23-2012 12:05 AM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Portillo, posted 02-23-2012 12:41 AM Coyote has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024