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Author Topic:   Evolution is not Abiogenesis
dwise1
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Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 91 of 251 (653962)
02-25-2012 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dr Jack
02-25-2012 4:35 PM


Re: What is Evolution?
Interesting. Do you know the history of the adoption of the term? Would be interesting to know. For example, I believe it was Spencer who came up with the term "survival of the fittest."
For the sake of creationist lurkers, whether it was Darwin himself or somebody else who adopted the pre-existing term, "evolution", to its use in biological evolution does not detract from the point I was making.

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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 92 of 251 (653966)
02-25-2012 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by dwise1
02-25-2012 4:51 PM


Re: What is Evolution?
According to the Wikipedia article on The Origin or Species, the 6th edition was the first to use the word evolution.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 93 of 251 (653972)
02-25-2012 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Percy
02-25-2012 5:19 PM


Re: What is Evolution?
That's slightly ironic then, since my copy is the sixth edition.

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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4161 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 94 of 251 (653973)
02-25-2012 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Trixie
02-25-2012 7:12 AM


Re:
Now, using the above, show me where dwise1 says that evolution ONLY means biological evolution in ANY context. As far as I can see he says that "FOR US", meaning those who accept biological evolution, evolution means biological evolution. Given the forum this is stated on and the subject under discussion, that statement is true.
Right here.
quote:
Other creationists apply an entirely different definition to "evolution" than we normals do. For us, evolution is biological evolution only.
It doesnt say for the purpose of this forum or for the purpose of this thread. It says the definition of "evolution". This forum does not just discuss biological evolution as this sub-forum shows.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 95 of 251 (653974)
02-25-2012 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by dwise1
02-25-2012 4:51 PM


The dreaded 'E' word?
Interesting. Do you know the history of the adoption of the term?
Gould is your man
quote:
"Evolution," from the Latin evolvere, literally means "an unrolling"--and clearly implies an unfolding in time of a predictable or prepackaged sequence in an inherently progressive, or at least directional, manner (the "fiddlehead" of a fern unrolls and expands to bring forth the adult plant--a true evolution of preformed parts). The Oxford English Dictionary traces the word "evolution" to seventeenth-century English poetry. Here the word's key meaning--the sequential exposure of prepackaged potential--inspired the first recorded usages in our language. For example, Henry More (1614-87), the British philosopher responsible for several of the seventeenth-century citations in the OED entry, stated in 1664,"I have not yet evolved all the intangling superstitions that may be wrapt up."
quote:
Although the word "evolution" does not appear in the first edition of Origin of Species, Darwin does use the verbal form "evolved" clearly in the vernacular sense and in an especially crucial spot: the very last word of the book!
quote:
But Darwin could not have described the process regulated by his mechanism of natural selection as "evolution" in the vernacular meaning then conveyed by the word. For the mechanism of natural selection yields only increasing adaptation to changing local environments, not predictable progress in the usual sense of cosmic or general betterment expressed as growing complexity, augmented mentality, or whatever. In Darwin's causal world, an anatomically degenerate parasite, reduced to a formless clump of feeding and reproductive cells within the body of a host, may be just as well adapted to its surroundings, and just as well endowed with prospects for evolutionary persistence, as is the most intricate creature, exquisitely adapted in all parts to a complex and dangerous external environment. Moreover, since natural selection can adapt organisms only to local circumstances, and since local circumstances change in an effectively random manner through geological time, the pathways of adaptive evolution cannot be predicted.
quote:
Herbert Spencer's progressivist view of natural change probably exerted the greatest influence in establishing "evolution" as the general name for Darwin's process, for Spencer held a dominating status as Victorian pundit and grand panjandrum of nearly everything conceptual. In any case, Darwin had too many other fish to fry and didn't choose to fight a battle about words rather than things. He felt confident that his views would eventually prevail, even over the contrary etymology of a word imposed upon his process by popular will. (He knew, after all, that meanings of words can transmute within new climates of immediate utility, just as species transform under new local environments of life and ecology!) Darwin never used the "e" word extensively in his writings, but he did capitulate to a developing consensus by referring to his process as evolution for the first time in Descent of Man, published in 1871. (Still, Darwin never used the word "evolution" in the title of any book--and he chose, in his book on human history, to emphasize the genealogical "descent" of our species, not our "ascent" to higher levels of consciousness.)
It goes on.

This message is a reply to:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4161 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 96 of 251 (653980)
02-25-2012 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Percy
02-25-2012 9:12 AM


Re: Try to debate without using swear words.
quote:
This is sort of off-topic, but why are you doing this? To the rest of us this looks like a purposeful attempt to confuse and obfuscate. It looks like, having perhaps decided that the battle in this thread can't be won, that you've decided to destroy any focus and clarity the thread might have.
Im not trying to confuse anyone. A term like evolution has many meanings, even in science. These meanings can change very rapidly. Evolution occurs when a baby is born, evolution occurs when dogs breed, evolution occurs when a farmer sprays crop with pesticide, evolution occurs when theres been change over time, the beginning of the universe is evolution.
Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Percy, posted 02-25-2012 9:12 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Percy, posted 02-25-2012 9:49 PM Portillo has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


(3)
Message 97 of 251 (653982)
02-25-2012 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Portillo
02-25-2012 5:55 PM


Re:
1. Your link to a "subforum" isn't working.
2. How come you're the only one claiming that dwise1 said this and everybody else understands exactly what he is saying?
3. You're wrong. Try reading for context and comprehension next time.
You're doing exactly what dwise1 claimed creationists do Hilariously you're doing it in an attempt to show that those who accept biological evolution deny the use of the word evolution in any other context. [hint]They don't[/hint]. What you are doing is failing to realise that, in biology, evolution has a very specific meaning.
This is similar to the problems we have encountered with abiogenesis, biogenesis, biopoesis, cosmic slime and all the other words that creationists throw around without fully undersanding what they mean.
Tell you what, you continue to use and understand evolution in your broad interpretation. None of our posts will make sense to you, but hey, you get to decide your very own pet meaning of evolution. None of your posts will make sense to anyone else, mind you.

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 98 of 251 (653987)
02-25-2012 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Trixie
02-25-2012 6:35 PM


Re:
Trixie writes:
Tell you what, you continue to use and understand evolution in your broad interpretation. None of our posts will make sense to you, but hey, you get to decide your very own pet meaning of evolution. None of your posts will make sense to anyone else, mind you.
Good job!I think you have summed up in three sentences what has happened in almost every discussion with every creationist that I have read since I started hanging out here.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 99 of 251 (653996)
02-25-2012 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Portillo
02-25-2012 6:19 PM


Re: Try to debate without using swear words.
Portillo writes:
Im not trying to confuse anyone. A term like evolution has many meanings, even in science. These meanings can change very rapidly. Evolution occurs when a baby is born, evolution occurs when dogs breed, evolution occurs when a farmer sprays crop with pesticide, evolution occurs when theres been change over time, the beginning of the universe is evolution.
You're not causing any confusion about the definition of evolution.
You're causing confusion by accusing Dwise1 of claiming that we evolutionists always use the biological definition of evolution no matter the context. I don't understand why you're doing this. You're not fooling anyone, you're just distracting from the topic by accusing someone of saying something so incredibly stupid that everyone has to respond.
Of course, we all know that when creationists say religion they always mean Christianity, no matter the context.
--Percy

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 Message 96 by Portillo, posted 02-25-2012 6:19 PM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4161 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 100 of 251 (653997)
02-25-2012 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Percy
02-25-2012 9:49 PM


Re:
So let me get this straight. When this forum discusses evolution, it is primarily talking about biological evolution. However, evolution can be used in other contexts aswell.
Is that right?

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Percy, posted 02-25-2012 9:49 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 101 of 251 (653998)
02-25-2012 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Portillo
02-25-2012 9:52 PM


Re:
So let me get this straight. When this forum discusses evolution, it is primarily talking about biological evolution. However, evolution can be used in other contexts aswell.
Is that right?
When scientists define terms they do so to increase precision and clarity and to reduce ambiguity.
Why do creationists feel the need to redefine terms that are already well-defined?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 102 of 251 (653999)
02-25-2012 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Portillo
02-25-2012 9:52 PM


Re:
Hi Portillo,
All Dwise1 was saying was that in the context of the dialog you were involved in, biological evolution was meant. It apparently seemed to him that you weren't taking context into account in deciding which definition of evolution was in play. Why on earth you would conclude that someone said something so stupid as insisting on a single definition regardless of context I have no idea.
Congratulations - I no longer recall what we were talking about originally.
--Percy

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Warthog
Member (Idle past 3968 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


(1)
Message 103 of 251 (654005)
02-26-2012 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Portillo
02-25-2012 9:52 PM


Re:
Seeing as you completely ignored my last post and continued along on your merry way, I'll recap.
quote:
From the OP...
Tangle writes:
I thought it might be useful to start a thread on how scientists explain the difference between the Theory of Evolution, the various ideas about how life started here on earth and why religious believers find it so hard to grasp what scientists think is a simple and obvious point.
It was specifically stated that the post was referring to the Theory of Evolution rather than the broad term evolution. Changing the meaning to suit your argument is disingenuous.
So, a bit at a time...
quote:
So let me get this straight.
Let's hope so.
quote:
When this forum discusses evolution, it is primarily talking about biological evolution.
Yes, generally that's true. In almost every case, in fact. In this thread in particular, it should be noted that the term was defined in the OP.
quote:
However, evolution can be used in other contexts aswell.
Of course it can. When I am talking sociology, I can refer to the development of mythological constructs as evolution. Nobody then mentions DNA or fossils as anyone with basic comprehension skills understands the term in context. They also know I'm not talking about a car.
Why do you feel the need to confound a perfectly rational discussion with diversions like this?

Ignorance is a Tragedy
Willful Ignorance is a Sin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Portillo, posted 02-25-2012 9:52 PM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 104 of 251 (654006)
02-26-2012 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Coyote
02-25-2012 10:10 PM


Re:
When scientists define terms they do so to increase precision and clarity and to reduce ambiguity.
Why do creationists feel the need to redefine terms that are already well-defined?
Because their mission is to deceive the public and themselves and to fool the public into supporting their political agenda. That requires decreasing precision and clarity and increasing ambiguity. That is the only way that they can keep the public (and themselves) totally confused.

This message is a reply to:
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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4161 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 105 of 251 (654009)
02-26-2012 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Warthog
02-26-2012 3:11 AM


Re:
quote:
Why do you feel the need to confound a perfectly rational discussion with diversions like this?
I wasnt trying to divert anything, I was just discussing. You guys and girls are the ones that get your panties in a twist.

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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