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Author Topic:   Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California
NoNukes
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From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
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(1)
Message 199 of 636 (638895)
10-26-2011 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by PaulK
10-26-2011 5:59 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
I'll admit to having some initial concerns, some of which were because of the couple being lesbians. It isn't all that unusual for children to express some early confusion regarding their gender, and to have that confusion resolved with help in part from a male role model in the house.

But upon reading the article, it appears to me that the family has done their homework, and I'm not sure what else they could have done to make sure that they are not meddling in something that the couple should be advised to leave alone. I've concluded that this is none of my business.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by PaulK, posted 10-26-2011 5:59 PM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by hooah212002, posted 10-26-2011 7:42 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 202 by Rrhain, posted 10-27-2011 4:44 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 201 of 636 (638914)
10-26-2011 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by hooah212002
10-26-2011 7:42 PM


Re: Lesbian couple treating son's hormones
What if it was a single mother who lived at home with her mother (the childs grandmother) and the grandfather has since deceased. Would you have the same initial concern?

I would have exactly the same concern with a single mother raising a son if I were told that the child had gender identity issues and that the parent wanted to treat the child with pharmaceuticals because of them.

My concern with the lesbian couple is not the couple's sexual orientation, but that the couples orientation may have led to a situation where there probably aren't any male role models in the house.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by hooah212002, posted 10-26-2011 7:42 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 203 of 636 (638942)
10-27-2011 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Rrhain
10-27-2011 4:44 AM


Actually, it is quite unusual. Children don't have gender identity issues as a rule because there are no end of role models for them to see. This nonsensical idea CS raised that a child at three "doesn't know" is simply not borne out by any studies of actual children.

Okay, I can buy that. I was already convinced that I was wrong about the parents being at fault.

Still, I've personally encountered a few instances of young boys in homes without dads insisting that they were are wanted to be girls. Perhaps that my impression was just anecdotal.

As we have found out, kids do better when the parents are gay than when the parents are straight.

Really? Where is this revealed?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Rrhain, posted 10-27-2011 4:44 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Rahvin, posted 10-27-2011 10:51 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 205 by Rrhain, posted 11-02-2011 5:43 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 278 of 636 (653100)
02-18-2012 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Taz
02-17-2012 10:35 PM


The law is changing at an expected rate, but the change in societal attitude is slow to a crawl.

Isn't this the way things have always worked? The law changes, and we can address situations like Tyra Hunter's using the law. But societal attitudes don't change until the dinosaurs having those attitudes finally die off. We still have politicians in power who believe that the civil rights act of 1964 should never have been enacted.

I blame this on you guys, the liberal commie political correctness police crowd.

Who are you talking about?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Taz, posted 02-17-2012 10:35 PM Taz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Coyote, posted 02-18-2012 1:10 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 281 of 636 (653110)
02-18-2012 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Taz
02-16-2012 9:06 PM


. And it's still politically correct to say gays be gone.

Apparently the word politically correct is so malleable as to no longer have any meaning at all.

In most circles, people who say gays begone are considered to be scum. We know fully well that those people who say that kind of crap, have gay family members just like everyone else does, and are thus condemning their own kin. I completely deny that such a thing is politically correct among the people I know.

Using your definition of politically correct, it is apparently still politically correct to racially profile Hispanics as long as illegal immigration is being fought, to circulate pictures of Obama on fake food stamps that include pictures of watermelon and fried chicken, to protest Muslim churches even if they are built a thousand miles away from "ground zero", simply because some prominent @#%$&*! still do those things.

Remember the phrase segregation before, segregation now, segregation forever? I'm paraphrasing here. Remember how quickly it became NOT OK to say something like that?

Buzsaw says stuff like that all the time.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Taz, posted 02-16-2012 9:06 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Taz, posted 02-18-2012 1:04 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 283 of 636 (653146)
02-18-2012 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Taz
02-18-2012 1:04 PM


Haven't you been watching the republican debates? Every time a candidate says something even remotely close to gays be gone they got a huge round of applauds. When asked about DADT they'd say they want the gheys back in the closet and the crowd went wild. Remember that this is all on national tv.

Do you think this is some kind of rebuttal? Those candidates are scum, and I don't think all that much of the audience either. Audiences have similarly applauded the idea that poor sick people should just die off rather than having access to health care.

What I really don't understand is how any of that is the fault of liberal commies who oppose those Republican candidates on nearly every issue. That idea just does not make sense to me at all. With the exception of the usual suspects, I cannot think of anyone on this board who has expressed anything but condemnation for DADT.

Edited by NoNukes, : Add more snark.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Taz, posted 02-18-2012 1:04 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Taz, posted 02-19-2012 12:09 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 306 of 636 (653885)
02-25-2012 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Dr Adequate
02-24-2012 5:15 PM


Dr.Adequate writes:

Maryland

I don't think Maryland meets Taz requirement, which as I understand it means confirmation of gay marriage allowing laws by popular vote. There have been several states where the legislature has enacted laws like the one in Maryland. I'm not aware of any cases where such laws have passed a public referendum.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-24-2012 5:15 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 02-25-2012 10:20 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 308 of 636 (654043)
02-26-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Theodoric
02-25-2012 10:20 AM


So why have legislatures if the only laws that matter are referendums. Taz's whole argument is ridiculous. Are we to have a plebiscite on everything?

On the other hand, if gay marriage legislation is often followed by referendums to overturn the new laws, then Taz's point isn't really moot is it?

ABE:
As for state constitutions, here in NC, voters have amended the state constitution so that gay marriage legislation can never be enacted, and are considering extending the prohibition to civil unions.

ABE: off

I agree that parts of Taz's arguments are ridiculous. But in any event, I think a rebuttal should be on target, and I don't think Dr. A's response was on target.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 02-25-2012 10:20 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 320 of 636 (654594)
03-02-2012 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by onifre
03-02-2012 8:21 AM


Re: I ain't no stinking Mexican
Most Mexicans, and latins for that matter, usually are. That's why most share values with republicans and usually vote that way.

As a matter of fact, most latins do not vote with Republicans regardless of how many values they share with them. In national elections, Republicans feel that getting 35% of voting Hispanics to vote for their party is doing extremely well.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by onifre, posted 03-02-2012 8:21 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by onifre, posted 03-02-2012 9:57 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 328 of 636 (661745)
05-09-2012 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by hooah212002
05-08-2012 11:51 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
Just because NC has "north" in it's title is not indicative of it's location in the US: it's still a southern state.

I don't feel any particular need to defend them, but Southern states have no monopoly on being backwards. According to wikipedia, 31 states ban same sex marriage by amendment to their constitution.

Here is the complete list of states whose constitutions do not either allow gay marriage or civil unions. I note in passing that Wisconsin is every bit as backwards as North Carolina in this regard.

Nebraska, Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Utah, Kansas, Texas, Alabama, Idaho, South Carolina, South Dakota, Wisconsin, Florida, North Carolina.

States with constitutions that ban gay marriage, civil unions, and any arrangement vaguely resembling marriage.

Michigan, Virginia.

States with constitutions that ban same sex marriages, but possibly leave openings for other unions.

Alaska, Nevada, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Oregon, Colorado, Tennessee, Arizona, California.

And of course even in states with no such amendment, there may be state legislation that bans gay marriage just as effectively as do the constitutional amendments.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by hooah212002, posted 05-08-2012 11:51 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by hooah212002, posted 05-09-2012 8:05 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 329 of 636 (661747)
05-09-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Rahvin
05-09-2012 5:44 PM


Re: Proof of Evolution! Watch it happen live on TV!
Obama is a politician first, and all of his publicly avowed positions flow from that.

Do you think Obama sees a political advantage in being on the record as supporting gay marriage?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Rahvin, posted 05-09-2012 5:44 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Rahvin, posted 05-09-2012 6:53 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 332 of 636 (661773)
05-09-2012 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by hooah212002
05-09-2012 8:05 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
If the only criterion for being labeled as backwards was a constitutional amendment against homosexual unions, I wouldn't have said what I did. The difference here is that NC already had one and they felt necessary to add yet another.

Wrong. NC did not have an anti-gay marriage constitutional amendment until this week. NC did have statutory provisions against gay marriage and civil unions. There is really nothing unique about NC's enactment. NC is well behind the path taken in Wisconsin in this matter. The NC constitutional amendment is pretty much the same as WI's backward nonsense.

Further, you did not merely say that NC was backwards, a statement that I wouldn't disagree with, but you characterized NC backwardness as being some kind of Southern thing. Well as you yourself are demonstrating, ignorance is not strictly a southern thing.

Which states, statistically, have introduced legislation to shoehorn religion into public education?

A few of the most backwards southern states have done so, yes, but we might also note that Michigan introduced such legislation in 2001 and similar legislation was introduced in New Hampshire this year. We might also note that Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District involved a Pennsylvania school district.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../01/02/gIQAbmOudP_blog.html.

ABE:

or example: which states, statistically, teach abstinence only?

Do any states do this? I'm aware that such legislation was introduced in Wisconsin, but I don't believe it was enacted.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by hooah212002, posted 05-09-2012 8:05 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by hooah212002, posted 05-09-2012 9:43 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 334 of 636 (661776)
05-09-2012 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by hooah212002
05-09-2012 9:43 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
You seem to have taken my comments personally, as if my slander of southern states includes yourself or that i was including every single person in those states. I was not.

It's not personal. Your statement is simply wrong. There is nothing distinctly southern about homophobic backwardness. I live in the South, but I'm a transplant. I was born in Mass, and my parents are from Pennsylvania.

NC did already have a ban on gay marriage. I will provide a link when I get home.

I did not deny that. Your statement was that NC enacted a anti-marriage amendment when they already had one. That would have been unique, but it did not happen. Perhaps you did not say exactly what you meant.

They are considered red states for a reason.

Red states means that the state is reliably Republican. Period.

Also, I was merely pointing out that a major of the regressive legislation that comes to light typically comes from southern states or representatives of southern states.

And I'm pointing out that such is not the case. Wisconsin's amendment did not come from the south. It was enacted by a 60 percent vote of Wisconsin residents, which is about the same as the percentage of North Carolina residents who voted for a very similar amendment.

f you would like to argue that the south is the progressive part of the nation,

I never said anything like that. The United States contains a huge number of regressive, backwards, homophobic, xenophobic, racists. There seems to be a relative sparseness of them in the New England states and on the West Coast. But if you swing a dead cat anywhere else, you are liable to hit one of them.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by hooah212002, posted 05-09-2012 9:43 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by hooah212002, posted 05-10-2012 8:11 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 336 of 636 (661796)
05-10-2012 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by hooah212002
05-10-2012 8:11 AM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
NoNukes writes:

Your statement is simply wrong. There is nothing distinctly southern about homophobic backwardness.


hooah212002 writes:

Is that what I said? I remember correcting you on this once already just a couple messages ago

Here is what you said:

Just because NC has "north" in it's title is not indicative of it's location in the US: it's still a southern state. I think it's clear that most, if not all, southern states are at a minimum a decade behind the remainder of the world as far as way of life and forward thinking is concerned.

So yes, you did suggest that the southern states were uniquely backwards ("a decade behind the remainder of the world"). And you offered that suggestion as an explanation for NC's brand new anti-gay marriage amendment. Your suggestion is nonsense, and I called you on it.

NoNukes writes:

Your statement was that NC enacted a anti-marriage amendment when they already had one.

Your response:

quote:
North Carolina voted Tuesday to outlaw same-sex marriage, which was already prohibited in the state.

You cannot correct your own statements by quoting someone else. What you said was that NC enacted an anti-gay marriage amendment when they already had one. Here is your exact, and incorrect wording with my emphasis added:

hooah212002 writes:

If the only criterion for being labeled as backwards was a constitutional amendment against homosexual unions, I wouldn't have said what I did. The difference here is that NC already had one and they felt necessary to add yet another.

If you meant to add some antecedent other than constitutional amendment, you did not do so. At least not before I called you on it. I'll also note that I acknowledged that NC statutes already banned gay when I called you on your own statement.

Is there a particular reason you keep mentioning Wisconsin?

Yes. The state is not in the south, and it happens to be where you live. WI and a number of other mid western states aren't all that different from NC in a number of ways. I believe that using WI points out the errors in your statement that NC is a decade behind non-southern states and makes the point that bigotry is far more widespread than you choose to acknowledge. As I also pointed out, 30 other states have constitutional amendments at least as oppressive as NC recently passed amendment, with a handful being even more repressive.

The vote makes North Carolina the 30th state to adopt a ban on gay marriage. While North Carolina law already bans same-sex marriage, the amendment means civil unions and potentially other types of domestic partnerships will no longer be recognized legally by the state.

Exactly so:

In fact, the quote also suggests that NC law, prior to passing the amendment, wasn't quite as oppressive as the law in WI.

ABE:

Quite frankly, I thinkTaz is right to be worried. While younger people seem to typically, have a more enlighted attitude about same-sex marriage, it appears that we are going to have to wait until the old foggies die off to see substantial changes in gay marriage laws. It is the case that in every state where the issue has been put to a popular vote, referendums to ban gay marriage have passed, and there are organizations that continue to back adding amendments to state constitutions all over the country.

Just how many southern states do you think there are anyway?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by hooah212002, posted 05-10-2012 8:11 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by xongsmith, posted 05-10-2012 12:36 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 338 by hooah212002, posted 05-10-2012 2:08 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 4954
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 340 of 636 (661914)
05-10-2012 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by hooah212002
05-10-2012 2:08 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
hooah212 writes:

I will quote what I said a while ago:

If the only criterion for being labeled as backwards was a constitutional amendment against homosexual unions, I wouldn't have said what I did

to indicate that, while being the topic of this thread, gay marriage was only (barely) part of what I was talking about, yet you keep harping on that one subject.

Incredible. You've actually quote mined yourself.

Let's add some context by citing the rest of that sentence from Message 331:

If the only criterion for being labeled as backwards was a constitutional amendment against homosexual unions, I wouldn't have said what I did. The difference here is that NC already had one and they felt necessary to add yet another.

You do talk about some other things in the same paragraph, like abstinence only education (which you later had to back off of), and shoehorning religion into education. But let's not pretend that the point of the sentence you quote mined was not directed at NC anti-gay marriage stance.

Now, reply again saying how WI also has anti-gay marriage laws on the books.

Wisconsin and 30 other states, most of which are not southern states.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by hooah212002, posted 05-10-2012 2:08 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
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