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Author | Topic: Whether to leave this forum or not | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Percy writes:
topic or propose one yourself. My concerns that you will drive threads off-topic are undiminished. The only reason I'm not suspending you for a week is because this is a Coffee House thread. But the next off-topic post from you I see, no matter in what forum, will gain you a 1 week suspension. I apologize Percy. I thought my post was on topic, since it was in coffeehouse, and I was anwering Granny Magda who asserted scientitsts have evidence for issues. I was merely pointing out areas where the evidence is lacking, in my opinion, yet posters are denegrinated for posting such things.As per the complaint of the OP.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
RAZD writes:
Assumptions aren't faith, they are tentative positions that can be demonstrated to be false, while faith is not based on an assumption that god/s exist. My point is that the metaphysical naturalists do not allow for anything but natural. Therefore a faith in nature.The Methodological naturalists doe allow for faith while learning what nature is and studying and learning from nature. RAZD writes: I agree science is only able to test natural means, but it does not have to rule out supernatural means when it cannot explain such issues as I posted, such as the origin of life etc.
Science is only able to test natural means (unless you have a source for employing supernatural means), so (until there is evidence otherwise) it is rational to proceed with explaining objective evidence with natural means up until those means fail
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There is evidence of natural causes.
No one has ever presented any evidence of unnatural or supernatural causes. Until you present evidence of unnatural or supernatural causes equal to the body of evidence of natural causes your position is simply another fantasy and unworthy of consideration.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Granny Magda writes: My point is that metaphysical naturalists, such as Dawkins, do rule out the possibility of supernatural, and therefore must have faith in the natural. But we're not talking about metaphysical naturalists you strange person. We are talking about scientists. Scientists are not required to be metaphysical naturalists. Most are not metaphysical naturalists, as ought to be perfectly obvious given that most of them are religious. That's kind of a big clue. Science requires methodological naturalism, which is a rather different thing. Your objection is completely irrelevant and only serves to underline your lack of understanding of the scientific method.Granny Magda writes: You are correct. Sorry about that.
Also, why on Earth did you respond twice to the same message? It's unnecessary and it prematurely bumps up the message count for the thread. If you think of something else to say, just edit the original message.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Remember, part and parcel of creationism is being taught that those creationist claims must be true or else Scripture has no meaning and God does not exist. I have never known any christianity that was not based on the idea that the whole bible was absolutely true. Christianity is based on the reality of the death, burial, and resurrection and deity of Christ. Why should anybody believe any of these things to be true? The only reasonable reason to believe any of these things to be true is because they are written in a book that is absolutely truthful and reliable. If genesis is just a collection of myths stolen from other sources and full of supernatural fantasies that the authors knew were false, there is no reason to believe Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. At that point, christianity is in a dust heap and the only people who believe the story are those who believe soley based on the emotionalism of the preacher and the desire to give meanings to their lives. These people are not concerned with giving a logical basis for their beliefs. Most christians I run into are of this stripe. They look at me puzzled for devoting so much of my time and energy to promoting the truth of the genesis creation and flood texts. They say "what does that have to do with preaching the gospel?" Nothing an atheist or scientist can ever say will sway these folks away from their faith. They believe because they need to believe. However, once the hardknocks of live come along, or someone of the christian faith they looked up to lets them down, their faith will come crashing down. The only logical way to be a christian in my opinion is to look at my way: The whole bible is true, including genesis. If this kind of thinking is only a century old, then the vast history of christianity has been practiced on shaky ground. Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
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shadow71 Member (Idle past 2961 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
Paulk writes: I didn't say anything about naturalism, but was talking about "Metaphysical naturalism" which by definition rules out all but natural causes for such issues as the origin of life and the origin of the universe. People like Dawkilns who ridicules anyone believing in a supernatural being. Allthough he does it for the money, there is still no excuse for such arrogrance.
Thirdly, I fail to see how you can claim that anyone who accepts naturalism must presume incompetence in the case of anyone who concludes otherwise. I suppose that this is just a foolish and dishonest attempt to mirror the fact that Young Earth Creationists must presume incompetence on the part of any scientists who conclude that the Earth or the Universe are very old. Which means virtualy every scientist active in the relevant fields.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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That's a very important thing to consider.
If you find they are wrong about stuff that is easy to test like the fact that Evolution happened and that the Theory of Evolution can explain the diversity of life we see around us and in the historical record, and that the Biblical flood never happened as described in the Bible stories, can you believe them about their claims about stuff that's not as easy to test? Hopefully, the answer is "Nope!". But that does not mean that you must throw Christianity away, only that you throw away the caricature of Christianity that they try to market. Edited by jar, : fix sub-titleAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
There is physical evidence of natural causes. There is statistical evidence of supernatural causes. There have been studies done on paranormal phenomena and data gathered in the studies show things happening at rates that are beyond the statistical norm. These data cannot be tested in a scientific manner , however, because the causal agents refuse to be tested in that manner.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined:
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Without a literal bible, christianity is absolutely worthless. It is merely a behavior modification program that gives its adherents hopes of pie in the sky with no basis whatsoever.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Ah, so please present the evidence of a supernatural cause.
Also some evidence of the existence of a "causal agent".Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi again shadow71,
My point is that the metaphysical naturalists do not allow for anything but natural. Therefore a faith in nature. You can't thread a nut on a nail. You may think you can jam one on, but that still does not make the nail a bolt. Science is currently unable to employ supernatural, so it uses the tools available to study what it can.
The Methodological naturalists doe allow for faith ... Yet, curiously, many scientists are people of faith, so obviously they have allowed faith in their worldview.
... while learning what nature is and studying and learning from nature. Using nature and natural processes to study nature and natural processes, what an amazing concept.
I agree science is only able to test natural means, but it does not have to rule out supernatural means ... Amazingly, the evidence is that many people of faith do not rule out supernatural means while they use nature and natural processes to study nature and natural processes, but instead are focused on what nature and natural processes can tell us about nature and natural processes. Would you not agree that the more we know about nature and natural processes, then the more we know about the created world? Should scientists have to allow for a flat earth or a geocentric earth in order to make room for specific faiths when the evidence clearly shows that these concepts are falsified? Should scientists have to allow for a world wide flood and a young earth in order to make room for specific faiths when the evidence clearly shows that these concepts are falsified? Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : make room?by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Yet the vast majority of Christian sects find no need of a literal Bible, particularly since the evidence is that there
Edited by jar, : fix tense for appalin spallinAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
That would take some time. I don't keep every link that I have read. You do know that studies in psychological phenomena use statistics right? The causal agents are presumed because nothing but an agent with mentality would give different results or no results at all when given the same initial conditions. Paranormal phenomena never follow a predictable pattern, therefore they cannot be tested using the scientific method.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
is or isn't?
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
foreveryoung writes: I have never known any christianity that was not based on the idea that the whole bible was absolutely true. The Methodists and Congregationalists are two protestant denominations that do not take a literally inerrant view of the Bible. The Catholics are closer to your views, but even they reject a completely inerrant Bible. They believe the world and universe are billions of years old, and that the account of the fall is figurative, not literal, though still believing that it does refer to an event at the dawn of mankind, whenever that was. --Percy
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