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Author Topic:   The Awesome Obama Thread II
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 331 of 397 (656104)
03-16-2012 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Perdition
03-16-2012 1:23 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
Perd writes:
You are very vocal in hating what the Obama administration is doing and has done in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Please re-read this thread and the original Obama thread for details.
I hate that SENATOR Obama and president Obama (who swore an oath to protect the constitution and its laws) protects Bush Jr from criminal investigation (I have repeatedly wrote about how PRESIDENT Obama intervened in Spain on Bush's account. It doesn't seem to bother any one else).
Perd writes:
I also wonder what you would have done differently had you been elected at the time Obama was, inheriting the two wars.
No, Obama did not inherit the wars. SENATOR Obama helped create the wars by funding EVERY war vote (the Vietnam war ended simply because congress stopped funding it). And, as a SENATOR, not supporting the articles of impeachment against Bush Jr.
Perd writes:
And I wonder what you would do now, that would protect America,
In effect, you are offering me the steering wheel AFTER the car has left the cliff. (I suppose I can now at least take my foot off the gas pedal.) Outside of america, the US has no credibility and are seen as immoral and illegal invaders. The UN is not perfect, but it is a better choice. The quicker the changeover the better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Perdition, posted 03-16-2012 1:23 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by crashfrog, posted 03-16-2012 3:43 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 350 by Perdition, posted 03-16-2012 4:29 PM dronestar has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 332 of 397 (656105)
03-16-2012 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by nwr
03-16-2012 1:40 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
nwr writes:
dronestar writes:
Minnemooseus, NWR, and Rahvin: Crash sways you? Really? . . .
No, he does not sway me. I can't speak for the others you mention.
I just happen to have a view that is somewhat similar to that of crashfrog. Perhaps I was looking at the same evidence.
On the other hand, I disagreed with our invasion of Afghanistan. I would have supported a quick raid on terrorist camps. But a full invasion, while perhaps morally justified, was foolish.
Hi, nwr. I'm just using your post as an occasion to comment, mostly because I appreciate your comments.
As a combat vet who opposed the war I fought in before--and after--I served in it, I heartily endorse crash's arguments in this thread.
We struggle to survive where we find ourselves, not where we would prefer to be.
If stateless fighters form an army to attack us, I find their lack of national borders no impediment to prosecuting a war against them, nor do I find the national borders of another nation an ethical or moral barrier to that prosecution.
The civilian casualties caused by drones are unfortunate, but any alternative also entails civilian casualties, arguably in much greater numbers, and would guarantee much higher American casualties.
I didn't object to the full invasion of Afghanistan so much as I did the occupation. Our forces are much better at inflicting rapid, heavy damage than at taking and holding territory. Our material wealth, technology, and reluctance to sacrifice American lives make us better suited to punitive actions, however massive, than to occupations.
I think that message--"If you attack us, we're going to blow up all your shit and leave. Don't make us come back!"--is far more effective than resentment-creating occupations in regions where our very presence is tantamount to sacrilege.
I detest war in a way no one who hasn't seen it cannot. I abhor the stupidity with which the lives of American troops and American honor are sometimes so casually put at risk.
But to respond to armed aggression with anything other than our full, effective might is foolishly counterproductive, and, ultimately, does not serve peace.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by nwr, posted 03-16-2012 1:40 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 03-16-2012 3:43 PM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 336 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 4:02 PM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 337 by Rahvin, posted 03-16-2012 4:02 PM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 361 by nwr, posted 03-16-2012 6:39 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 333 of 397 (656106)
03-16-2012 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by dronestar
03-16-2012 3:34 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
the Vietnam war ended simply because congress stopped funding it
And there's your reason why Congress will never, ever again attempt to force the President to end a war by defunding it.
And, as a SENATOR, not supporting the articles of impeachment against Bush Jr.
Well, not everybody can have Dennis Kucinich's distinguished record of... hrm, what, exactly? Belief in UFO's, opposition to reproductive freedom, and a cowardly withdrawal from the Senate?
If you insist that the only palatable Senator/President is the one who insists on martyring himself on every single issue, then Kucinich was definitely your guy. But a great many of us elected a President with the idea of policy accomplishment, and to the extent that the President is constrained by Congress, there remains much to be pleased by.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 3:34 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 3:51 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 338 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 4:06 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 334 of 397 (656107)
03-16-2012 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Omnivorous
03-16-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
Amen brother; preach the Gospel.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Omnivorous, posted 03-16-2012 3:39 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 335 of 397 (656108)
03-16-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by crashfrog
03-16-2012 3:43 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
Crash writes:
Well, not everybody can have Dennis Kucinich's distinguished record of... hrm, what, exactly? Belief in UFO's, opposition to reproductive freedom, and a cowardly withdrawal from the Senate?
Don't forget the hot wife. (Meooow!)
Your other piffle (apparently embraced by others on this forum) has been addressED repeatedly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by crashfrog, posted 03-16-2012 3:43 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by xongsmith, posted 03-17-2012 10:52 AM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 336 of 397 (656109)
03-16-2012 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Omnivorous
03-16-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
Omni writes:
But to respond to armed aggression with anything other than our full, effective might is foolishly counterproductive, and, ultimately, does not serve peace.
Iraq didn't attack the US. Terrorists, mostly from Saudi Arabia and based in Saudi Arabia attacked the US. And the country of Afghanistan did not attack us. Now, I understand you didn't say Iraq DID attack the US, but you could be explicit and indicate that is WAS immoral and illegal for america to attack Iraq.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Omnivorous, posted 03-16-2012 3:39 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by crashfrog, posted 03-16-2012 4:20 PM dronestar has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 337 of 397 (656110)
03-16-2012 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Omnivorous
03-16-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
Hi Omni,
The civilian casualties caused by drones are unfortunate, but any alternative also entails civilian casualties, arguably in much greater numbers, and would guarantee much higher American casualties.
I'm quoting you here as a reply both to you and to crash, because the above is how I can potentially be convinced to sway my support.
I'm a humanistic utilitarian. I value the net reduction in human suffering and death. My revulsion at drone attacks stems from my sense of justice which in this case essentially boils down to "sometimes you have to kill to save lives, but for the love of humanity make sure you're killing the right people and not just contributing to more death and suffering."
Instances where drone attacks have blown up weddings and stories I've heard on NPR detailing the extremely low level of certainty required for authorization of a drone attack (ie, look Muslim and have something that looks like it might be a weapon from a long distance, which covers just about everyone in Afghanistan or Pakistan) cause me to expect that the accuracy of drone attacks (meaning the killing of actual, real threats as opposed to "collateral damage") to be rather low. If I am mistaken in this belief, I would welcome evidence to prove me wrong - it would make me feel an awful lot better about my country. I've never seen a cogent analysis of the issue from that perspective.
I'm not just some peacenik tree-hugger pacifist (though I really, really wish I could be). I firmly believe that the United States was justified in using nuclear weapons at the end of WWII (largely because of what everyone knew and when they knew it; had psychic powers or time travelers from the future with 20/20 hindsight existed, the rational choice would have been different). I understand that defending oneself often means killing threats, and I understand that killing threats is virtually never clean. I just want to be certain that we're using the most accurate, least harmful methods, particularly considering the problem of increased enemy recruitment in the face of perceived (real or imagined) injustice from the American military.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Omnivorous, posted 03-16-2012 3:39 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 4:09 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 359 by Omnivorous, posted 03-16-2012 5:40 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 338 of 397 (656112)
03-16-2012 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by crashfrog
03-16-2012 3:43 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
Drone writes:
the Vietnam war ended simply because congress stopped funding it
Crash writes:
And there's your reason why Congress will never, ever again attempt to force the President to end a war by defunding it.
Huh?
Am I misunderstanding? You're saying ending the Vietnam war was BAD?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by crashfrog, posted 03-16-2012 3:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Rahvin, posted 03-16-2012 4:11 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 348 by crashfrog, posted 03-16-2012 4:21 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 339 of 397 (656115)
03-16-2012 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Rahvin
03-16-2012 4:02 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
Rahvin writes:
I'm a humanistic utilitarian.
Oh no, not the defunct humanistic utilitarian POV!
For the mother of god, no Rahvin, no, . . . nooooo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Rahvin, posted 03-16-2012 4:02 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Rahvin, posted 03-16-2012 4:12 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 340 of 397 (656117)
03-16-2012 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by dronestar
03-16-2012 4:06 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
Huh?
Am I misunderstanding? You're saying ending the Vietnam war was BAD?
I think he's more commenting on how the defunding of the war effort caused massive problems.
I wasn't alive for Vietnam and I don't have time to do research at the moment, but I would hazard to guess that either by removing funds, Congress also impeded the ability to pull out, or that the President simply continued to "stay the course" despite the new lack of funding and that this crippled the American ability to prosecute the war decisively. Or both.
How far off am I?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 4:06 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 4:15 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 341 of 397 (656118)
03-16-2012 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by dronestar
03-16-2012 4:09 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
Oh no, not the defunct humanistic utilitarian POV!
For the mother of god, no Rahvin, no, . . . nooooo.
...what?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 4:09 PM dronestar has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 342 of 397 (656119)
03-16-2012 4:13 PM


If only the ol'-humanitarian-Onifre was around.
If only the ol' humanitarian-Onifre was around.
He'd help clarify things in this thread.

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Rahvin, posted 03-16-2012 4:16 PM dronestar has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 343 of 397 (656121)
03-16-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Rahvin
03-16-2012 4:11 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
Rahvin writes:
I think he's more commenting on how the defunding of the war effort caused massive problems.
The WAR was a massive problem, not the ending of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Rahvin, posted 03-16-2012 4:11 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Rahvin, posted 03-16-2012 4:17 PM dronestar has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 344 of 397 (656122)
03-16-2012 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by dronestar
03-16-2012 4:13 PM


Re: If only the ol'-humanitarian-Onifre was around.
If only the ol' humanitarian-Onifre was around.
He'd help clarify things in this thread.
Maybe, but he's been replaced by Dark Oni, who would insist that "the problem of terrorism would go away if everybody would stop eating so much damned meat, stop smoking, and get some exercise, you fatty nerd."

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 4:13 PM dronestar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by onifre, posted 03-16-2012 7:16 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 345 of 397 (656123)
03-16-2012 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by dronestar
03-16-2012 4:15 PM


Re: Arguments of sovereignty, back on the table . . .
The WAR was a massive problem, not the ending of it.
I don't recall anyone suggesting otherwise with regard to Vietnam.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 4:15 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by dronestar, posted 03-16-2012 4:20 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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