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Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Supreme Court Obamacare Case -- Pros and Cons | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10038 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
But it's not a tax, it's a penalty. The same kind of penalty if you don't pay taxes, but a penalty rather than a tax. Like Crashfrog says, is there really a difference? Is there precedent for these types of penalties? For instance, are banks charged a fee for not paying FDIC dues (do they even pay dues for this insurance?)? Overall, it is still insane that they had to call this a penalty instead of a tax in order to get it by Blue Dog Democrats. I guess politics really is about perception instead of reality.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Taq,
Politician lawyer types like to use language to argue points either way.
... Is there precedent for these types of penalties? ... There is a precedent for the mandate: Congress Passes Socialized Medicine and Mandates Health Insurance -In 1798
quote: So there was a penalty if you didn't pay: you couldn't work as a sailor. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4250 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
yes, but why is healthcare so expensive?
I think it is due to insurance costs and liability costs, not because the procedure or the doctor's time is all that valuable or costly. I think forcing you to buy something from a private company borders on supporting a monopoly, something that will be based on profits, instead of patient care, driving up the cost, and driving down the quality.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
yes, but why is healthcare so expensive? Because we overpay doctors, for the most part. We pay doctors 50% more than any other country. Insurance billing has something to do with it, but "liability costs" isn't part of it; malpractice coverage is maybe 1% of health care costs. If even that.
I think forcing you to buy something from a private company borders on supporting a monopoly, something that will be based on profits, instead of patient care, driving up the cost, and driving down the quality. The ACA regulates how much of insurance company revenues can be taken out as profit, so clearly this is wrong. These are real and complex issues, AE, and you should consider taking a little more effort to do research beyond your usual standard of "I'll just make it up."
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3259 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
yes, but why is healthcare so expensive? Part of it is the cost of the doctor. They spend a lot of money, time and effort to become doctors, and presumably, you don't even want the ones that put all that effort in and came out last in their class, you want the best of the best. That's going to cost you. But there is also the cost of the procedures: the machinery being used (CAT scans, PET scans, X-Rays), the labs being run (techs, equipment, materials), any time spent in the hospital (food, heat, electricity, construction, expansion, etc). But the proftability of the insurance companies is also a large part of the cost. That's why I favor a public option, the profit motive is removed, and the risk of anyone being uninsured goes away almost completely. Any remaining risk is spread across the entire population, diluting it quite a bit.
I think forcing you to buy something from a private company borders on supporting a monopoly, something that will be based on profits, instead of patient care, driving up the cost, and driving down the quality. Since there are competing insurance companies, there is no monopoly, and under conventional economic wisdom, the competition should keep costs down (it doesn't but oh well). But yeah, I support a public option, which removes much of the concerns of the second half of your quote above.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4250 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
These are real and complex issues, AE, and you should consider taking a little more effort to do research beyond your usual standard of "I'll just make it up."
I aint got time for all that, im good, thanks for your concern though. how did people afford the doctor before health insurance? Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
how did people afford the doctor before health insurance? Before 1935, medicine didn't really do all that much, so people didn't need it as badly. It's really only been in the last 30 years that medical science has been able to expensively extend the lives of people with serious ailments. Also it's only been in the last 30 years that a doctor's salary has put you in the 1%.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4250 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
is it really that expensive to write scripts all day long?
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3259 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
is it really that expensive to write scripts all day long? If that was all doctors did, we could get rid of them right now.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1488 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
is it really that expensive to write scripts all day long?
No, it's not, which is why other countries have used price controls and monopsony power to reduce the costs of medical care.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2 |
Isn't the cost of medication also a large contributing factor? Specifically, my understanding is that countries with national single-payer healthcare use the purchasing power inherent in a virtual monopoly (private insurance usually still exists as additional coverage, but their purchasing power pales in comparison) to bargain for reduced bulk-pricing on medication.
The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
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DBlevins Member (Idle past 3797 days) Posts: 652 From: Puyallup, WA. Joined: |
how did people afford the doctor before health insurance? The same way they do today if they coudn't afford healthcare. They didn't go to the doctor.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2972 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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yes, but why is healthcare so expensive? I think forcing you to buy something from a private company borders on supporting a monopoly, something that will be based on profits, instead of patient care, driving up the cost, and driving down the quality. Of course it's based on profit. Looking at the average American's size increase in the past 40 years, why wouldn't someone make money off of an increasingly unhealthy population? There's a market that is continuing to be unhealthier year after year. Why wouldn't doctors and drug makers not benefit from that? - Oni
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Page Not Found:
404 Not Found - CBS News
quote: Yet they did just that in 1798 ...
quote: ... when many of the founding fathers were still walking talking and participating in the US Government. So there is no question about precedent OR what the founding fathers would think.
quote: And that a patchwork system of states is not sufficient to fairly distribute the costs of our corporation owned healthcare. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : qs layerby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Jon Inactive Member |
Yet they did just that in 1798 ...
quote: ... when many of the founding fathers were still walking talking and participating in the US Government. So there is no question about precedent OR what the founding fathers would think. Has this point been brought up yet do you know? JonLove your enemies!
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