Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Athiest Manifesto
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9053
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 46 of 54 (657477)
03-28-2012 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Heathen
03-28-2012 9:53 AM


Re: Why did you change his language?
So. "heathen" works as an "alternative" title to "Atheist" in order to avoid the "unhelpful connotations"
Again I repeat. They are not the same thing. No matter how many times you and this source say they are they are not.
Heathen does not work as an alternative for atheist.
I am an atheist not a heathen.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Heathen, posted 03-28-2012 9:53 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Heathen, posted 03-29-2012 2:17 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 54 (657480)
03-28-2012 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Panda
03-28-2012 10:18 AM


Re: Atheist, heathenist.
3) Right-click and choose the correct spelling.
I didn't know it did that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Panda, posted 03-28-2012 10:18 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1274 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 48 of 54 (657496)
03-29-2012 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Theodoric
03-28-2012 7:20 PM


Re: Why did you change his language?
They are not the same thing
I think the author realises this, and he states that he wants to reclaim (or claim) the word.
quote:
we should look to other groups who have reclaimed mocking nicknames, such as gays, Methodists and Quakers
Once upon a time the word "gay" definitely did not mean homosexual in any way shape or form. And you would probably have been there claiming it was being incorrectly used. But the word has taken on an alternative meaning, which now, to all intents and purposes has become its primary meaning
that's the beauty of language. It's not set in stone. It's fluid. It changes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2012 7:20 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2012 9:19 AM Heathen has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 49 of 54 (657510)
03-29-2012 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
03-26-2012 8:12 AM


Your manifesto contains way too many words for me.
My "atheist manifesto" is very easy; I just don't believe in the existence of a god or gods.
That's it.
I'll explain it like this: I prefer to have a look at the empirical, verifiable evidence for what somebody tells me before I accept it. If I am not educated enough on a subject to be able to even have a meaningful opinion, I also look at the consensus of the specialists on it and the method of theirs obtaining their decision.
But, then again, I don't normally conform to the group mentality. Groups are known to reach very disturbing conclusions just to feel "in". Group pressure is a very strong pressure. (Creationists would call it a " scientific law" ).
Objective and verifiable, empirical evidence for a phenomenon normally does it for me.
Edited by Pressie, : Smilie didn't work and changed a sentence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Heathen, posted 03-26-2012 8:12 AM Heathen has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9053
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 50 of 54 (657517)
03-29-2012 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Heathen
03-29-2012 2:17 AM


Re: Why did you change his language?
I think the author realises this, and he states that he wants to reclaim (or claim) the word.
Yes he wants a word to mean something it does not mean. Does he really think using "heathen" instead of "atheist" will be some sort of PR coup?
Once upon a time the word "gay" definitely did not mean homosexual in any way shape or form. And you would probably have been there claiming it was being incorrectly used. But the word has taken on an alternative meaning, which now, to all intents and purposes has become its primary meaning
that's the beauty of language. It's not set in stone. It's fluid. It changes.
This is a ridiculous argument. "Gay" is a slang term. If you could show the same for the word "homosexual" you may have a point. Show me how "homosexual" has morphed into something else and you would have a point.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Heathen, posted 03-29-2012 2:17 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Heathen, posted 03-29-2012 9:25 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 52 by Panda, posted 03-29-2012 10:28 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 54 by Heathen, posted 04-02-2012 10:05 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1274 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 51 of 54 (657519)
03-29-2012 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
03-29-2012 9:19 AM


Re: Why did you change his language?
World English Dictionary writes:
gay (ɡeɪ)
adj
1. a. homosexual
b. of or for homosexuals: a gay club
2. a. carefree and merry: a gay temperament
b. brightly coloured; brilliant: a gay hat
c. given to pleasure, esp in social entertainment: a gay life
so.. not slang.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2012 9:19 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3703 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 52 of 54 (657536)
03-29-2012 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
03-29-2012 9:19 AM


Re: Why did you change his language?
Theodoric writes:
This is a ridiculous argument. "Gay" is a slang term.
'Slang' is a bit like 'Life' or 'Species'.
All of them are notoriously difficult to define.
Even when linguists attempt to define 'slang', their definitions are often subjective and/or based on usage (which varies between populations).
It also seems particularly difficult to identify single-word slang (as opposed to phrases).

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2012 9:19 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 53 of 54 (657598)
03-29-2012 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
03-26-2012 8:12 AM


Why we are heathens
Heathens is a fair enough term, and I've used it to describe myself on a number of occasions. Skeptics and unbelievers works too. Atheist has its uses. The term 'bright' and 'rationalist' bother me for some of the same reasons Baggini mentions.
Additionally, 'rationalist' means something else, and I am not one of them
quote:
in which the criterion of the truth is not sensory but intellectual and deductive
I would regard myself as something more akin to a rational empiricist - but that's a little clumsy.
'Bright' has the 'dim' problem. Dennett thinks we can avoid this by referring to non-brights as 'supers' or some other positive term, but I don't think that's going to work.
Heathens are naturalists
I'm happy with this. I am, and I think the kind of people Baggini is trying to draw in are also, naturalists. We are metaphysical monists.
Our first commitment is to the truth
This simply does not help. Just about everyone believes they are committed to the truth in some fashion or another.
We respect science, not scientism
A lot of people that call themselves atheists now are often accused of scientism. The fact is, it is the best method for learning about the raw facts about the world. Science is however, constrained by ethics so there are some things we simply cannot study the way we would other things. So as a fact of life, we have to use less reliable means of determining truth.
We value reason as precious but fragile
Humans are imperfect reasoners. I'm cool with that.
We are convinced, not dogmatic
We are as certain as we can be, but even then our knowledge is forever tentative.
We have no illusions about life as a heathen
I'm sure that's just wishful thinking.
We are secularists
Sounds good to me.
Heathens can be religious
I'm not so sure about that. If you strip away all the supernatural, the dogma and the irrational from a religion you are just left with philosophy.
Religion is often our friend
Religion is a friend that gives food to the homeless while talking about itself all the time. It's the friend that can drive you to believe killing someone is not only good, but morally imperative. Religion is a friend that often discourages you to have other friends who are not also friends with that religion.
To be honest, it's a friend we could do without.
We are critical of religion when necessary
Which is often. At least at the moment. Maybe one day it will be less necessary to criticize it.
This manifesto is less concerned with distinguishing heathens from others than forging links between us and others
That might work, but I suspect it won't. After all, the word 'Atheists.' is considered to be controversial by at least one American company. I don't think a rebrand is going to be sufficient to overcome that kind of crap.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Heathen, posted 03-26-2012 8:12 AM Heathen has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1274 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 54 of 54 (658091)
04-02-2012 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Theodoric
03-29-2012 9:19 AM


Re: Why did you change his language?
quote:
I agree the following should be for the other thread but as you posted it here I will answer here.
Do you understand what he means when he talks about "Reclaiming" a word in the same way the originally derogatory words 'Gay' or 'Methodist' or 'Quaker' were reclaimed by the people they describe?
I find huge issues with his idea that these people "reclaimed" these terms. Sounds like some new age scholarship woo.
You don't think homosexuals, for instance, have reclaimed the words "gay" and "queer" and use them so as to, if not nulify, then weaken their use as derogatory terms? Why not?
Theodoric writes:
You really are a tool arent you.
Theodoric writes:
Quit being insulting. It demeans any semblance of an argument you have.
Indeed.
Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 03-29-2012 9:19 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024