An Atheist By Any Other Name . . .

Thanks Phat, I needed a laugh. You consider yourself rational, logical and reasonable......yet you believe, without any real evidence, that there is an invisible man in the sky who gives a shit about YOU and has a place for your "soul" when you die? You could at least be honest and admit that you compartmentalize your rationality, logic and reason.

I suppose it could be looked at as hedging. A more neutral way of looking at it would be that atheists accept that they are fallible people capable of making mistakes. That atheists believe that knowledge is always tentative.But saying that atheists are hedging may in fact be misrepresenting the situation.When I say I can't conclusively state that no god exists, I say that in exactly the same way I say I can't conclusively state that no invisible pink unicorn exists, no garage dragons exist, no FSMs exist, no domovoi exist, no leszi exist, no djinn exist, no goblins exist, no Nephilim exist...It might be technically hedging, but is it practically hedging to say that 'Theists might be right in the same way that there might be a Celestial Teapot orbiting the sun?And if it is hedging, could you explain why hedging might be a problem?Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

To maintain a rational position that's easily justiable.Its a lot harder to maintain the positive position that there is no god than it is the position of lacking a belief in a god. The latter is an unconvinced and uncommitted position... piece of cake.But its no big deal either: a lot of people don't know about a lot of things.

Hi Shadow, Well it's kinda both. The difference is based on what we can say with a reasonable degree of certainty and what we feel in our gut.I define myself as an atheist. It is my position that there is no valid reason to believe in a god or gods. I think that this position is logically valid and is entirely justifiable. I think that this position leaves the proper space for tentativity and acknowledgement of my own fallibility. I do not claim to know that gods do not exist, just that there is no reason to suppose that they do. Of course, I would take the same position on leprechauns, celestial teapots and garage dragons.But then, on the other hand, there is my gut feeling. I am pretty certain that there are no gods and no supernatural. If I were to take a punt, I would put my money on the non-existence of gods. The difference here is that I do pretend to know that there are no gods. I can't prove that there are no gods. I can create a pretty good case against their existence, but I can't pretend that I can create a logical argument that absolutely proves that gods aren't real. Still, if you want my opinion, I think that gods are basically fictional.The former is a position that I would be willing to defend in debate. the latter is my personal opinion and so I'm a little more easy-going about it. I would characterise both positions as atheism.Now compare and contrast with the common theist's position that they just know that God is real. Well, sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but no, you don't know. You may think. You may be certain that you are right, but you don't know. And neither do I.No-one knows with 100% certainty what the state of the universe is. No-one knows with 100% certainty whether gods exist or not. Anyone who tells you that they do is a dupe, a lunatic, a fool or a liar. I try to reflect that in my opinions and arguments.Mutate and Survive

Yes, if we accept your incorrect definition of "hedging your bets," then atheists who do not unambiguously believe there is no God are hedging their bets.But in reality the term "hedging your bets" has not changed its definition and still, in this context, refers to those who are not sure whether there is a God but devoutly practice a religion anyway just to be safe. Now, which religion to choose. You don't happen to know which is the one, right and true religion, do you?--Percy

Here is where I found the definition I used. From the free dictionary.com ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms... 3. hedge - an intentionally noncommittal or ambiguous statement; "when you say `maybe' you are just hedging" I have a firm belief what is the right and true religion.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with hedging, I was just suprised that an atheist would hedge on his or her beliefs.

Why? Of what use are beliefs if they do not align with evidence, data or fact? Moreover, of what use are beliefs in general? It is you, the believer, the theist, who puts stock in belief, not the atheist.

What's surprising about it exactly? As I said, it's the very minimal amount of hedging that it's possible to have. The same kind of hedging that I partake in when I say there is (probably) no CIA base on the moon that reads my thoughts and mind-controls my family.Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

You should really watch the video because that is Harris' exact point.He says that we need to stop letting semantics, the term "atheist", divide us from people who would otherwise agree with us about issues regarding reason and evidence.It really is quite a good video if you have the time.

Are you saying that atheist beliefs do not align with evidence, data or fact?That beliefs are unimportant?I would assume that in any discpline one comes to a belief that this or that is a fact, or has been proven to a very high degree etc.I don't see how one could live life w/o believing in something that they have chosen to determine is a proven proposition to some degree of proof.So does the atheist comfort his/her self with the assumption that nothing can be believed? Or need not be believed?Scientists believe in what they have come to the conclusion has been proven to a certain degree.To not belive is a copout, in my opinion.Yes, it is I the theist, who after study, mediation, introspection and life experiences does come to a belief.Is that something the atheist cannot accept?

I guess I am reacting to the activist atheist who ridicule belief in a supernatural being with vitriol and personal attacts who in the end result take the postion, ok, maybe your are correct, there may be a supernatual, we don't know.
If so lighten up a little bit in your provacations is what I say to the activist atheists.

First, it seems as though we should come to an agreement about the definition of belief we are going to use, as it appears that we are saying two different things when we say belief confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.That is the definition I use. So yes, beliefs are unimportant in the grand scheme of things, IMO and speaking as an atheist. Evidence, data and facts are true regardless whether one believes them or not, so no, atheists don't have beliefs (in the sense that I am using the term) in them. I prefer to say one has come to a conclusion, not to a belief. There is nothing comforting at all about the universe, just what you make of it. The universe is a cold, fickle, cruel bitch. Says you. I say it is the believer who is copping out, what with his belief in unevidenced things just to make his or herself feel a bit better. I'm not sure what you mean....

Whatever led you to believe that the word "hedge" and the phrase "hedge your bets" are synonyms? They're not unrelated, after all the word is part of the phrase, but you can't look up the word "hedge" and believe you've found the definition of "hedge your bets."But even the word "hedge" by itself is inappropriate in the way you're trying to use it. Refusing to commit on issues of insufficient evidence is a hallmark of good science, not hedging. And refusal to commit is akin to placing no bet at all and would be the furthest thing from hedging your bets. I'm sure you do, as do many other people around the world. You can't all be right. Shouldn't you be hedging your bets and attending the churches of all religions? After all, you don't want to be left behind.--Percy

I never said that. in fact the opposite was being proposed.the author of the original article talked about "reclaiming" the word, in the same way other words with negative connotations have been reclaimed and used by the people who they were meant to describe.