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Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The 50-50-50-50-50 tax and economic plan. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Republicans and libertarians talk about having a simple flat tax system.
Okay. Let's go further and combine the tax system with the benefit system to create one simple easy to administer plan:
Something for everyone to hate ... Fully fund medicare (A, B, C and D) for everyone. Let people buy "gap" insurance for what they want to cover in addition to the medicare coverage with a single payer no deductible plan. Eliminate minimum wage requirements (this is covered by the $50/day benefit). Eliminate welfare, social security, unemployment, food stamp, etc state and federal programs and management. All tax funds left over after budget go to reduce the national debt. Once the debt is eliminated the tax rate can be adjusted annually to match the budget requirements. The money sent to the states shall be used to:
Your paycheck will only have your wages shown: you are responsible for reporting income over $50,000.00 and paying the tax on it. All paycheck deductions are eliminated because they are paid by other means. Your W-2 will show the annual wages. The forms filed by the companies only need show annual wages paid. With no minimum wage and simplified forms this truly benefits small businesses and promotes job growth, and it allows people to add to their minimum wage by working at will without losing benefits. abe: it should also eliminate poverty /abe Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : (abe) per Rahvin comment Edited by RAZD, : {abe} per reply 43 Edited by RAZD, : clrty Edited by RAZD, : deleted retirementby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Rahvin,
In principle, though, your ideas make more social sense to me than any "flat tax" proposal I've seen from lolbertarians and Republicans. Darn, you're supposed to hate flat taxes on principle ...
And what about sales tax? I don't see a need to charge tax for food, but maybe we should be taxed on obvious luxury goods? Eliminate it -- how you define "obvious luxury" probably differs from Donald's. I meant to have this included in the state share as well. (see abe)
I'm also not sure property taxes should be abolished. I don't necessarily think that a poor family in a $100,000 home (hey, I live in CA, that's a mud hut here) should pay a lot in property tax, but I do think that Donald Trump should pay some taxes on the real estate he uses to pay for the dead muskrats he wears on his bald head. Why should you pay tax multiple times on something you already own? Donald's chunk would come from his 50% on earnings over $50k. This would also ensure that elderly\disabled\pensioners could stay in their houses and not be taxed into foreclosure.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Taq,
Prices will rise to meet the increase in income. ... Prices may rise in response to greater spending, which means the economy will grow. Why would the price of milk go up if demand is constant? It may end up being cheaper to produce some products (lower net wages paid by (especially small) business with no tax deductions included in costs), so small business profits can increase without price hikes.
You will see a spike in inflation that will wipe out any benefit from this plan. Which will reduce debt load on borrowers, allowing them greater ability to pay off debts. Interest rates will drop. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
They too would be taxed on earnings over $50k/year, and small start up businesses would be eligible for $50/day benefits (based on work completed).
Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
On another thread I mentioned that I read an article that said there will be a point where people will need to be paid to consume, due to population growth and productivity improvements, in order to maintain the economy as we know it.
This may seem an outlandish concept at first ... but wait: Look at all the agricultural assistance programs, especially where farmers are paid to NOT grow crops in order to keep prices up and competitive so farmers can make a living? This is paying people to do nothing, isn't it? Of course those people continue to consume products, so the foot is already in the door. But why should farmers be the only ones to benefit from such programs? If there are fewer jobs than job seekers, then shouldn't the same logic be applied and some job seekers should be paid to not work? Wouldn't this make the job market more competitive and provide the same kind of benefit that the farmers get? So why not give everybody a "consumer stipend" of $50 per day in return for being a tax filing citizen of the USA and as a reward for being a law abiding (ie not in jail) member of the US economy? Or think of it as a dividend for being a share-holder in the US economy. This would eliminate poverty in the US and give everyone a boost. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : workers Edited by RAZD, : law Edited by RAZD, : povertyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi crashfrog,
What does "mandatory retirement" mean? It means you stop working for somebody else. It means executives step down and let the next generation take the reins. But mostly it's included here because americans seem to have some kind of aversion to the whole idea of having lots of leisure time ... Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Mr Jack
Let's see some numbers then? I strongly suspect that, in fact, the system you're suggesting just plain won't work. Citizen income (aka negative income tax systems) just don't stand up in the cold light of day. It's always easy to assert your opinion, isn't it? Do you know of instances where such programs have been used in complete saturation of the population? Redirect Notice '@Livable4All - 1975 Mincome Article (newspaper article discussing the program) Livable Income For Everyone - Manitoba Mincome
quote: Looks to me like (a) your assertion is false and (b) that there are many other (social) benefits for the people than just increased income: better health and better education. Better health also leads to lower health costs, and the better education leads to better paying jobs.
quote: bold added ... Again, this falsifies your assertion. ... that's two studies of a saturation program that show similar positive economic results AND additional social benefits.
quote: It not only gets people out of poverty, and improve their health and education, it gives them the independence to control their lives. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : addedby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Mr Jack
Message 11: ... Citizen income (aka negative income tax systems) just don't stand up in the cold light of day. Why don't you provide evidence that this is true rather than just an assertion. Rather difficult imho, due to the information that I have provided which shows it is false. Now we can argue about the actual amounts provided, but not about whether or not this does work in general -- we have different cases on hand that show it does.
Numbers, RAZD. Show us some numbers indicating that your apparently arbitrary set of 50s adds up to coherent budget. Look up ther numbers in the references to see what they used (the information is there). Then we can argue about the effect of different $$ amounts eh? I also repeat:
quote: In other words more people would have participated if the numbers they used had been higher ... We also know from the BIGNAM results that the return was more than the investment, which would also indicate that more investment would increase returns. Do you have any evidence to counter that? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Mr Jack,
So.... still no numbers? So ... still no evidence that feeding the bottom economic level doesn't work?
Message 11: ... Citizen income (aka negative income tax systems) just don't stand up in the cold light of day. Is this or is this not just your assertion of your personal opinion.
Come on, RAZD, you're the one making the proposal, show us something? Why so shy There are numbers in the linked report on the Canadian town for what actually worked there: why so shy about reading it to see what they are and then make an informed reply?
Message 18: Working out basic numbers shouldn't be that hard, I'm not looking for a detailed budget plan. Read the report and then we can talk. The full report is a pdf, so it is difficult to copy. I've provided enough information to show that these programs work, you have just voiced your opinions and one-liner snippets. Read the report and get back to me on where you think it would break down. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : split post Edited by RAZD, : pdfby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi again Mr Jack
Also, mandatory retirement at 50 is bonkers, anti-libertarian and cruel. LOL. Being told to get out and enjoy yourself is cruel? When I was growing up in the 50's and 60's there was a lot of talk about how people would cope with the increased leisure time that improved production would generate. One way proposed was early retirement expanding the "golden years" ... and there are other places in the world that have lower retirement ages than the US. Retirement - Wikipedia
quote: There are also lots of advice websites on how to retire at 50 ... so how is that bonkers?
quote: One way to initiate a debate is to take an extreme position ... One way to mock a particular argument is to take it to an extreme position ...
[qs]Also, mandatory retirement at 50 is ... anti-libertarian .... So? To me this is just more evidence that libertarian policies are bonkers ... . Remember that we have more job seekers than we have jobs, thus getting people to retire earlier is one way to allow everyone in the work force to benefit. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : Tby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi crashfrog,
Forcing experienced people into undesired permanent unemployment isn't the way to grow the economy. But this is your opinion that it is undesired and your use of "poison the well" words (permanent unemployment => no income => bad connotations, cue the fox news demonizing squad ...). When the point is that it is possible to do other things you have wanted to do but put off because you were working.
Yeah, RAZD. It's actually cruel to lock people out of gainful, ... Except you still have $50/day/person income -- income that is in excess of poverty level pay, income that is more than many people get from pensions or social security when they retire at 67 (or will it be over 70 for your age group, cruelly making you work more years than your parents) and considerably more than minimum wage from part time work driving a bus ... Are you saying that it is not possible to live comfortably on $50/day? Or that you only get joy\happiness from work? How protestant.
Suppose that you're a 49-year-old working as a manager ... That has failed to have any backup trained and educated because they are a lousy at delegation of tasks and can't plan more than a week ahead? Perhaps you need to be replaced but have too high an opinion of yourself to see it? Paint, write books, travel, take care of grandkids, volunteer to the peace corps, mentor at schools, walk from one side of the country to the other, or any number of thousands of other things. There are more rewarding things to do than just working for pay week after week. Do it before you are too beat up by age and disease to be able to do it. We can afford to lighten up the work load because there are more job seekers than jobs, we can afford to share the wealth of production improvements and an economy stimulated by increased spending. Heck you could also have mandatory 50 days of holidays\vacation per year for workers ... Countries Compared by Labor > Vacation > Minimum vacation time around the world > Legally required. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
quote: That's 49 days in France, and the RTT is because there are more job seekers than jobs ... Finland has 35, several countries have 30+ days. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : clrty Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Buzsaw,
Heaven forfend, Buz, that you need to be nudged to set aside worldly affairs and have to take up a spiritual cause ... your personal "trip to mecca" if you will ... Curiously it seems I have united Buzsaw and crashfrog ... a rather remarkable accomplishment eh? Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi rbp
NINE NINE NINE Exactly, just what is being mocked and parodied and taken to an extreme position that should make the skin crawl of all fixed tax proponentists. You want a flat tax ...? try this one for size eh? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Coyote,
I'm curious; is there enough money to do this? Is there enough money to pay ceo's million dollar salaries and bonuses? Yes. Would that money be subject to the flat tax? Yes Is this a "lot more" money than is currently paid in taxes by these people? Yes.
How do the figures come out? Hard to find usable data, without mixing apples and oranges, but let's take a wild swing at it: United States federal budget - Wikipedia
US federal spending is currently on the order of 3.6 Trillion $US for 2011, with 0.7 Trillion $US for Social Security 2012 United States federal budget - Wikipedia
quote: 3.8 Trillion $US for 2012 Less 0.7 Trillion $US est for 2012 Social Security cost (replaced) = 3.1 Trillion $US needed to pay for current allocations. The Gross Domestic Product was: List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia
quote: 15 Trillion $US in the GDB subject to tax 50% = 7.5 Trillion $US Less current 3.1 Trillion $US allocated outlays = 4.4 Trillion $US The Current Population of the U.S.A.
quote: 311 million x 365 x 50 = 5,675,750 million or 5.7 Trillion $US Cutting this back to 4.4 Trillion would mean 4,400,000 / 311 / 365 = ~$39 per hour instead of $50 or $14,235 per year Still more than poverty level wages, and about double the amount in the Canadian study. Certainly in terms of first order of magnitude approximations it works. A 10% increase in GDP from the stimulation of the economy would add 1.5 Trillion $US of which 0.7 Trillion would be added to the 4.4 Trillion $US bringing it closer: 5,100,000 / 311 / 365 = ~$45 per hour instead of $50 or $16,425 per year. Another 10% increase in GDP in the following year and you are there with gravy. This does not include the cost savings from combining IRS, welfare, social security, unemployment etc administrations all into one simplified easy to manage program. This does not include state income tax revenues and other elements. Could we start with $30/day/person ($10,950/year) and have a surplus? This is closer to the amount in the Canadian study. Could we cut other government programs (military budget)? Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : math fixby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Mr Jack,
I can see no numbers indicating the system provided a balanced budget in the report. Perhaps you can point them out? IIRC they ran into budget issues when the government changed and that's why the program was canceled and boxed up before any evaluations were done.
... your numbers would be different anyway. Yeah, that's just a first blush look and doesn't incorporate all the proposals. At least it's not out of the ballpark. The Canadians reduced the benefit by 50% of any earnings and a system like that (25%?) would reduce the expenditure but it would be very difficult to figure out how much. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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