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Author Topic:   No Witnesses
Tangle
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From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 26 of 215 (651783)
02-10-2012 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by shadow71
02-09-2012 7:54 PM


How can an organism evolve
unless it has an orgin of life
Well we are all in agreement that all organisms had an origin at some point. You believe that you know how that happened; science is still working on its own ideas.
Knowing an origin, doesn't, of course, affect anything about what happens next. If a baby is left on the church steps, with a note saying 'please look after my child,' we can expect it to grow even if we don't know how it got there.
Just out of interest, when science has an answer, what will your new reply be?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by shadow71, posted 02-09-2012 7:54 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by shadow71, posted 02-10-2012 2:49 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 31 of 215 (651845)
02-10-2012 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by shadow71
02-10-2012 2:34 PM


Re: Origins vs. Evolution
shaddow77 writes:
If some deity (as you say poofed life into existence), then it may well be that evolution is planned and not random
Well, quite apart from life certainly not being random, if it's planned it sure doesn't look like any planning we humans would understand.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by shadow71, posted 02-10-2012 2:34 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 33 of 215 (651848)
02-10-2012 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by shadow71
02-10-2012 2:49 PM


I will let you know when science supplies an answer. But I would not get my hopes up as to science finding an answer.
It's always best to rehearse - you don't want to be caught wrong footed. There's a lot happening in the microbiology labs now you know.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by shadow71, posted 02-10-2012 2:49 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by shadow71, posted 02-10-2012 4:34 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 44 of 215 (651897)
02-10-2012 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by shadow71
02-10-2012 4:34 PM


I will wait until I see something
And then you will, of course, simply deny it. After all, if you can just flatly deny 150 years of evidence and facts in several scientific disciplines that proves that complex life evolved from simpler life over millions of years, what chance does a new major discovery like abiogenesis in your own lifetime stand?
This is a difference between the rational and the irrational; the believer's mind set and the scientist's.
I can still remember years ago when I first heard the ID arguments, I got all excited that evolution theory was possibly wrong. I read everything I could get my hands on wondering whether it could be true. It took me a couple of weeks to work out it was complete and utter bullshit and I was really pissed off. Partly because of the dishonesty of the case but mostly because of the anti-climax.
You can see that sense of excitement with the speed of light problem and Higgs boson stuff at CERN. At least half the scientists want their theories to be proven wrong and the other half are trying desperately to prove them wrong too. Scientists are iconoclasts, they want to prove accepted wisdom wrong.
You, with your unalterable beliefs, are the exact opposite. No amount of evidence can possibly change your mind and you spend your life denying every new thing that comes along that might challenge those beliefs.
Why are you here if you don't want to learn?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by shadow71, posted 02-10-2012 4:34 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by shadow71, posted 02-11-2012 9:24 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 51 by Omnivorous, posted 02-11-2012 9:43 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


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Message 52 of 215 (651990)
02-11-2012 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by shadow71
02-11-2012 9:24 AM


Shaddow77 writes:
I accept that complex life evolved over millions of years,
if you can accept that, why do you have a problem with abiogensis? it's just the next logical step. Making the first replicating molecule is just chemistry - you might as well claim God's purpose in putting the molecules there....it has exactly the same intent and outcome.
but why do I have to accept dogma that states it cannot have been planned?
Nobody can prove that there's a plan or not. We can only look at the world we live in and say that what we see does not give the impression of planning. Evolution is too haphazard for anyone who's studied it to think that there is a plan behind it. If you accept evolution I'm sure you understand the reasons for saying that.
Please show me the proof that all that exists was started from nothing by some type of natural cause.
No-one can, although you will have heard all our best theories on how such a thing can happen. On the other hand no-one can prove the exisitence of a non-natural cause either. So in the end, you have to consider the balance of probablities and conclude that given that everything we know comes about naturally and that religious explanations have failed, then the most likely origin of the universe is also natural.
You may reject all that, but at least I can explain my position. I find that most believers had the belief before they developed reasons for it and so can not easily defend it, they can only fight off evidence against it.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


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Message 165 of 215 (660653)
04-28-2012 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Chuck77
04-28-2012 4:32 AM


chuck writes:
just go find a chimp that can write a book, fly to the moon, etc etc etc
Early man could do neither of those things. How far back in time do you think we could go before your gut would allow you to see similarities between apes and men?
My conclusion is that chimps/apes should be classified seperatly than humans
and of course they are classified seperately. Homo sapiens and Pan troglodytes.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Chuck77, posted 04-28-2012 4:32 AM Chuck77 has replied

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 Message 185 by Chuck77, posted 04-29-2012 5:50 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 179 of 215 (660742)
04-29-2012 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Chuck77
04-29-2012 4:08 AM


Chuck writes:
Macro-evolution is a cow, slowly over long periods of time, becoming a whale
if a cow turned into a whale over ANY period of time, I'd worship any god you told me too.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Chuck77, posted 04-29-2012 4:08 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Chuck77, posted 04-29-2012 4:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 182 of 215 (660746)
04-29-2012 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Chuck77
04-29-2012 4:51 AM


chuck writes:
Well, how about any land mammal to sea mammal
Same answer.
A cow is a cow and a whale is a whale. They can't and won't ever change. Animals don't 'turn into' other animals. That's not what evolution does.
This is one of the reasons creationists get into a tizzy about the ToE, they think it's something that it isn't, then say it's impossible. But you've heard this 1,000 times Chuck, how come you still don't get it?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Chuck77, posted 04-29-2012 4:51 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Chuck77, posted 04-29-2012 5:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 189 of 215 (660754)
04-29-2012 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Chuck77
04-29-2012 5:46 AM


chuck writes:
Are you saying land mammal to water mammal and vice versa didn't or doesn't happen?
We know that land animals evolved so that they could live in the sea and vice versa. Just read the evolution of the whale. Evolution of cetaceans - Wikipedia
But this process took 50 million years and didn't start with cows or anything like cows. Both cows and whales are modern animals, they both descended from animals many millions of years ago - their ancestors have been extinct for millions of years.
Cows can never evolve to become water living animals and whales can never become land living animals.
It's just about theoretically feasible - although desperatel unlikely to the point of impossible - that in another 50 million years a creature whose ancestor was a cow could now look and live like a hippo or even a whale, but it's far more likely that if our planet's environment changed so much that cows had to evolve that way, they would just go exinct.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
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