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Author Topic:   Genesis is an Evolutionary account
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 3388 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 1 of 7 (658561)
04-06-2012 10:55 AM


Please objectively consider the enclosed information. May it finally put to rest the ‘red herring’ of an evolution/Genesis conflict. The validity of evolution would not, in the slightest degree, diminish the evidential necessity of the existence of God, nor would it preclude the validity of divine creation.
Evolutionists for nonscientific reasons have erroneously discarded the Genesis account and, equally erroneously, religionists have discarded evolution as being contradictory to a Genesis account.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines between paragraphs.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-19-2012 1:25 AM PaulGL has replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 7 (659825)
04-19-2012 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulGL
04-06-2012 10:55 AM


Need to expand on your concept some
Sorry - For whatever reason, this PNT was not responded to for 13 days.
You need to expand your content here some - You have not at all stated how you think that "Genesis is an Evolutionary account" (nice title though).
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulGL, posted 04-06-2012 10:55 AM PaulGL has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by PaulGL, posted 04-30-2012 1:25 PM Adminnemooseus has replied
 Message 4 by PaulGL, posted 04-30-2012 1:33 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

PaulGL
Member (Idle past 3388 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 3 of 7 (660895)
04-30-2012 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
04-19-2012 1:25 AM


Re: Need to expand on your concept some
I am perturbed, flabbergasted, and disturbed by the continuing efforts of misguided (to the point even of committing perjury in ‘Dover, et. al.’) and scripturally incorrect religious people to foist their misconceptions, under the guise of ‘scientific theories’ (creationism, intelligent design, etc.) upon the educational system. Simply because the origin and mechanism of Divine genesis is of a supernatural (versus natural, i.e.: a process amenable to scientific evaluation) involvement it is not and can never be a scientific discipline. In addition to the obvious damage and hindrance to our educational curricula, these attempts are a huge misrepresentation of spiritual reality and Biblical truth; and are a tremendous disservice to God and His interests concerning the human race. Please objectively consider the enclosed information. May it finally put to rest the ‘red herring’ of an evolution/Genesis conflict. Should you find it to be of value, feel free to disseminate it as far and wide as you wish.
The validity of evolution would not, in the slightest degree, diminish the evidential necessity of the existence of God, nor would it preclude the validity of divine creation.
Evolutionists for nonscientific reasons have erroneously discarded the Genesis account and, equally erroneously, religionists have discarded evolution as being contradictory to a Genesis account.
Now it is time to logically examine the merits and foibles of the "pro-Creation" argument.
For we are told that in the beginning God created (bara) the heaven and the earth; but the Scriptures never affirm that He did this in the six days. The work of those days was, as we shall presently see, quite a different thing from original creation: they were times of restoration, and the word asah is generally used in connection with them.
Now asah signifies to make, fashion, or prepare out of existing material; as, for instance, to build a ship, erect a house, or prepare a meal.139
To promote the literality of the six days of restoration makes equally as much sense as the Roman Catholic Church's defense of the earth as the center of the universe in the time of Copernicus. It is theologically incorrect to think that the 6 days were literal 24-hour days, since time elements (lights) were not assigned until the 4th day. The damage done by such misguided, and scripturally mistaken believers, in making Christians appear to be ignorant and illogical people, has been inestimable. What would cause some of the better scientific minds of the last century to illogically jump to conclusions in a frenzied effort to discredit the Bible in general and Genesis in particular? What would cause religious people to feel compelled to attack evolution as if they were defending the Faith? The answer to these questions is obvious if we rephrase them with the word who instead of what. Who has always endeavored to cause the human race to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel? None other than our most subtle enemy, Satan.
There are six specific categories of life formed in the six‑day account: ...
The order of their listing in the six‑day account is in the same specific chronological order of appearance determined by scientifically derived (evolutionary) evidence: ...
The mathematical odds against this being coincidental are 720 to 1; in other words, 720 to 1 that this account is divinely inspired, since divine inspiration is the only alternative to coincidence.
Author’s Note: Since the writing of the above <40+ years ago>, scientific consensus no longer validates the above. My opinion: With whatever process was involved geologically: 1. The original (pre-adamic) creation and with its removal globally. & 2. Restoration of the earth producing man. & 3. Noah’s flood, I doubt that conclusive empirical evidence can be deduced that either proves or disproves the order of life forms in the 6-day account. The geologic stratification deck has been shuffled too many times.
I highly recommend Creation Science as being relevant to the truth in these matters.
What evolved characteristic was reached in man that differentiated him from the other creatures? Both man and all other creatures have souls‑ what difference is there between man's soul and the souls of animals? Only man has a free will. ...
...The attainment of a free will is dependent on the attainment of a certain level of intelligence, ...
If Adam was the first primate to genetically evolve in intelligence sufficiently to have a free will- only at which point he could be held responsible for his actions, then it would be critically essential for his mate to have an identical set of chromosomes. Yet Adam was unique, being the first to reach this level.
How did God solve this problem?
And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. (Gen. 2:18, 21‑23)
It is possible to clone a woman from a man. However, it is not possible to clone a man from a woman. Did God clone Eve from Adam so that the required trait would be retained by Adam's offspring?
This is an appealing view of a process with an inherent tendency to drift toward an organic goal but it doesn't explain how a random system can suddenly turn into one capable of replicating itself. It is not clear that an evolutionary process without replication must inevitably, or can indeed ever, lead to one that does include it. ...The evolution of life presents a similar problem, and may have followed the same kind of sequence, beginning with the existence of a suitable crystal, probably a very small one, relatively insoluble in water. A colloidal mineral would be ideal, and none is in fact more common, or better suited to the needs of a primitive gene, or more appropriate in a biblical sense, than clay.
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust (Hebrew: clay) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-19-2012 1:25 AM Adminnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-30-2012 11:05 PM PaulGL has replied

PaulGL
Member (Idle past 3388 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 4 of 7 (660896)
04-30-2012 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
04-19-2012 1:25 AM


Re: Need to expand on your concept some
My apologies for any and all delays caused by my cyber-ignorance of the intricacies of your website, etc. Your people were admirably capable in leading me by the hand. Bon appetit`!
Hope the 'expansion' opens up some novelle neuronic pathways leading to something more eternal than additional knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-19-2012 1:25 AM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 5 of 7 (660941)
04-30-2012 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulGL
04-30-2012 1:25 PM


Not looking good for promotion
Author’s Note: Since the writing of the above <40+ years ago>, scientific consensus no longer validates the above.
So, why is it in your message 1?
1. The original (pre-adamic) creation and with its removal globally.
You're saying that ALL evidence of the Earth's state was was removed? It's like it never existed?
2. Restoration of the earth producing man.
So, a totally new creation start? All the geologic record of the Earth is a result of this "restoration"? Roughly how many years ago did this "restoration" happen? Is this some sort of variation of "young Earthism"?
3. Noah’s flood, I doubt that conclusive empirical evidence can be deduced that either proves or disproves the order of life forms in the 6-day account.
I find this to be pretty murky. How long did this "6-day account" take to happen?
The geologic stratification deck has been shuffled too many times.
That's is big pile of rock. How do you propose that this "shuffling" happened?
I highly recommend Creation Science as being relevant to the truth in these matters.
You need to bring text of your specific arguments to this forum. You can then specifically reference to a specific answersingcreation.org page.
Only man has a free will.
REALLY???
If Adam was the first primate to genetically evolve in intelligence sufficiently to have a free will- only at which point he could be held responsible for his actions, then it would be critically essential for his mate to have an identical set of chromosomes.
Identical??? Why is this?
It is possible to clone a woman from a man.
Really? I suspect that with enough divine intervention, you could clone a woman (or a man) from a turnip.
Your message 3 strikes me as being a hodge-podge of dubious and unsupported assertions. I see your message 3 as being too unfocused to be a proper debated topic. I think you need to (and are certainly welcome to) start over and propose a new topic (not just reworking the above in this topic) with a much more specific theme. I still would be interested in whatever (brief) answers you might have to my above questions.
Other admins may have other thoughts on this, and they are certainly welcome to make comments. But as things sit, I'm going to reject this one.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by PaulGL, posted 04-30-2012 1:25 PM PaulGL has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by PaulGL, posted 05-02-2012 3:53 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

PaulGL
Member (Idle past 3388 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 6 of 7 (661145)
05-02-2012 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Adminnemooseus
04-30-2012 11:05 PM


Re: Not looking good for promotion
1. ' God is a God who hides Himself' He even specifically tells us this in His word, the Bible. Why, then, does He choose to act in such a way? He doesn't desire either 'spiritual robots' or 'couch-potato lovers'. What man does? So He does not leave traces of direct divine intervention of a degree or type that would interfere with free will. So that people like "Adminnemooseus" are free to think and choose concerning eternal matters, rather than do so as a result of unmistakable eveidence of His existence.
2. All traces of the pre-Adamic civilization that rebelled with Satan were 'swept into the abyss'; again, to not interfere with free will. This occurred between Genesis 1:1-1:2; without any direct details. Their influence, however, upon homo sapiens occurs in other ways. So, there has been since the formation of the solar sysem intense terraforming events due to astral catastrophism. Claims of diivine actions in this area are unnecessary. There are however, besides the obvious craters on all of the terrestrial type inner planets; scientific indications of the Flood. Celestial mechanics of astral physics verify the possibility of a logical mechanism (cyclical) for Biblical castrophes as record not only in the Bible but also in many other reliable historical records. "The Ice Epoch and the Biblical Flood of Noah", "The Long Day of Joshua and Six Other Catastropes"; both by Donald W. Patten.
3. If Adam was the first primate to GENETICALLY evolve to a level of intelligence sufficient for him to have a free will, it would be essential for him to have a genetically identical mate- so that his offspring would likewise have the intelligence necessary for a free will. But his genetic composition was the first and at that time unique. So the only solution has to be cloning. Both genders have 22 pairs of alleles identically, but the 23rd pair (sex chromosomes)is XX & XY . You can take 2 X's from two different cells of a man and clone a woman; BUT you cannot clone a man from a woman because a woman does NOT have a necessary Y chromosome. All this I am sure you are aware of, but your reply neglected and overlooked the mechanics involved. Now, is that 'focused' enough for you. Or will you chose to make snide, irrelevent remarks about turnips? No offense, but such remarks ordinarily should be beneath your caliber of objectivity.
4. The 'young-earthers' are totally in error- both scientifically, theologically, and scripturally. Mostly, they are not objective thinkers, so I don't even waste time reasoning with them. As specifically detailed, there is a huge loss of linguistic precision when translating from either Hebrew or Greek into English. FYI : Same greek words 'bios' (physical, biological), 'psuche' (root of the English psychology, related to the SOUL: mind, emotion, will), and 'Zoe' (eternal, uncreated, divine) are ALL translated into the same English word 'life'. This lack of precision inevitably results in an incorrect mental understanding of spiritual reality as conveyed by the Bible.
5. As I pointed out: the same phrase God CREATED the heavens and the earth as used BOTH in the very first verse of Gensis AND in reference to the 6-day account are TWO different Hebrew words (bara and asah) with very different implications.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-30-2012 11:05 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Admin, posted 05-03-2012 9:19 AM PaulGL has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 7 of 7 (661202)
05-03-2012 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulGL
05-02-2012 3:53 PM


Re: Not looking good for promotion
Hi PaulGL,
Adminnemooseus made a very specific request:
Adminnemooseus writes:
I see your message 3 as being too unfocused to be a proper debated topic. I think you need to (and are certainly welcome to) start over and propose a new topic (not just reworking the above in this topic) with a much more specific theme.
We try to make sure each new thread has a clear and specific topic, but your proposal spans a number of different topics. I'm going to close this proposal but invite you to submit another proposal on just one of your topics. Here's a list of the different topics I was able to identify:
  • Evolution/Genesis conflicts are a red herring.
  • Evolutionists have discarded Genesis for non-scientific reasons.
  • The supernatural can never be a scientific discipline.
  • Genesis does not affirm the six day creation.
  • The 6 days of creation were not 6 24-hour days.
  • Satan is the cause of the creation/evolution controversy.
  • Genesis and science agree on the order of events during the 6-day creation.
  • All living creatures have souls.
  • Man differs from other creatures only by his possession of free will.
  • Free will depends upon intelligence.
  • Eve may have been a clone of Adam.
  • Evolution began with a very small insoluble crystal, possibly colloidal, in water.
  • Such a crystal is best suited to both genes and clay.
I suggest picking one of these topics. You probably consider some of these topics as closely related, so if you want to gather a few of them together into a single topic then that would be fine, too. But we're not going to promote a thread comprising all these topics at once.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by PaulGL, posted 05-02-2012 3:53 PM PaulGL has not replied

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