Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 331 of 759 (661764)
05-09-2012 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by NoNukes
05-09-2012 6:12 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
I don't feel any particular need to defend them, but Southern states have no monopoly on being backwards. According to wikipedia, 31 states ban same sex marriage by amendment to their constitution.
If the only criterion for being labeled as backwards was a constitutional amendment against homosexual unions, I wouldn't have said what I did. The difference here is that NC already had one and they felt necessary to add yet another. My comment toward taz was simply saying not to judge an entire movements stance on one southern state. Take a number of other factors into consideration. For example: which states, statistically, teach abstinence only? Which states, statistically, have introduced legislation to shoehorn religion into public education? Maybe I don't see the Connecticuts or Marylands or New Yorks or Californias doing it because I am biased. Maybe I only see the Tennesees, the Alabamas, the Mississippis, the Kansas's and the Kentucky's doing it because I am biased.
It isn't shocking to say that the south is full of rednecks, regression and ignorance. And I do say that with a bias. With that said, I do realize that, yes, there are progressive parts of the south (Austin and Dallas spring to mind).

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2012 6:12 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2012 9:04 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 332 of 759 (661773)
05-09-2012 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by hooah212002
05-09-2012 8:05 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
If the only criterion for being labeled as backwards was a constitutional amendment against homosexual unions, I wouldn't have said what I did. The difference here is that NC already had one and they felt necessary to add yet another.
Wrong. NC did not have an anti-gay marriage constitutional amendment until this week. NC did have statutory provisions against gay marriage and civil unions. There is really nothing unique about NC's enactment. NC is well behind the path taken in Wisconsin in this matter. The NC constitutional amendment is pretty much the same as WI's backward nonsense.
Further, you did not merely say that NC was backwards, a statement that I wouldn't disagree with, but you characterized NC backwardness as being some kind of Southern thing. Well as you yourself are demonstrating, ignorance is not strictly a southern thing.
Which states, statistically, have introduced legislation to shoehorn religion into public education?
A few of the most backwards southern states have done so, yes, but we might also note that Michigan introduced such legislation in 2001 and similar legislation was introduced in New Hampshire this year. We might also note that Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District involved a Pennsylvania school district.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../01/02/gIQAbmOudP_blog.html.
ABE:
or example: which states, statistically, teach abstinence only?
Do any states do this? I'm aware that such legislation was introduced in Wisconsin, but I don't believe it was enacted.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by hooah212002, posted 05-09-2012 8:05 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by hooah212002, posted 05-09-2012 9:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 333 of 759 (661775)
05-09-2012 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by NoNukes
05-09-2012 9:04 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
You seem to have taken my comments personally, as if my slander of southern states includes yourself or that i was including every single person in those states. I was not.
NC did already have a ban on gay marriage. I will provide a link when I get home. Also, I was merely pointing out that a major of the regressive legislation that comes to light typically comes from southern states or representatives of southern states. They are considered red states for a reason. Nowhere did i say that northern states never do this. I was wrong to say abstinence only in reference to state mandated education as you are correct that no states have abstinence only education.
If you would like to argue that the south is the progressive part of the nation, I'm all ears for that argument. But I don't think "see, other states do it too" is a good start.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2012 9:04 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2012 11:01 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 334 of 759 (661776)
05-09-2012 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by hooah212002
05-09-2012 9:43 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
You seem to have taken my comments personally, as if my slander of southern states includes yourself or that i was including every single person in those states. I was not.
It's not personal. Your statement is simply wrong. There is nothing distinctly southern about homophobic backwardness. I live in the South, but I'm a transplant. I was born in Mass, and my parents are from Pennsylvania.
NC did already have a ban on gay marriage. I will provide a link when I get home.
I did not deny that. Your statement was that NC enacted a anti-marriage amendment when they already had one. That would have been unique, but it did not happen. Perhaps you did not say exactly what you meant.
They are considered red states for a reason.
Red states means that the state is reliably Republican. Period.
Also, I was merely pointing out that a major of the regressive legislation that comes to light typically comes from southern states or representatives of southern states.
And I'm pointing out that such is not the case. Wisconsin's amendment did not come from the south. It was enacted by a 60 percent vote of Wisconsin residents, which is about the same as the percentage of North Carolina residents who voted for a very similar amendment.
f you would like to argue that the south is the progressive part of the nation,
I never said anything like that. The United States contains a huge number of regressive, backwards, homophobic, xenophobic, racists. There seems to be a relative sparseness of them in the New England states and on the West Coast. But if you swing a dead cat anywhere else, you are liable to hit one of them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by hooah212002, posted 05-09-2012 9:43 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by hooah212002, posted 05-10-2012 8:11 AM NoNukes has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 335 of 759 (661791)
05-10-2012 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by NoNukes
05-09-2012 11:01 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
Your statement is simply wrong. There is nothing distinctly southern about homophobic backwardness.
Is that what I said? I remember correcting you on this once already just a couple messages ago.
NoNukes writes:
Your statement was that NC enacted a anti-marriage amendment when they already had one.
quote:
North Carolina voted Tuesday to outlaw same-sex marriage, which was already prohibited in the state.
Sauce
quote:
The vote makes North Carolina the 30th state to adopt a ban on gay marriage. While North Carolina law already bans same-sex marriage, the amendment means civil unions and potentially other types of domestic partnerships will no longer be recognized legally by the state.
(bolding mine)
Sauce
Was there some particular word I used that confused the dialogue?
Red states means that the state is reliably Republican. Period.
There's a good pun there.....if only I were a better comedian. Yes, I am aware of this. I guess being a "red state" has certain implications to me as a progressive. Ya know, being regressive and all that.
And I'm pointing out that such is not the case. Wisconsin's amendment did not come from the south. It was enacted by a 60 percent vote of Wisconsin residents, which is about the same as the percentage of North Carolina residents who voted for a very similar amendment.
Is there a particular reason you keep mentioning Wisconsin? Do you think you are making your case (whatever it may be) by saying "see, Wisconsin has fucked up legislation and backwards thinking cow tippers too"? Or do you think I personally hold some special place in my heart for this state (hint: I don't. I fucking hate Wisconsin)?
The United States contains a huge number of regressive, backwards, homophobic, xenophobic, racists.
Yes, and the majority of them are in the south. That is all I was getting at.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by NoNukes, posted 05-09-2012 11:01 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by NoNukes, posted 05-10-2012 9:12 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 336 of 759 (661796)
05-10-2012 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 335 by hooah212002
05-10-2012 8:11 AM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
NoNukes writes:
Your statement is simply wrong. There is nothing distinctly southern about homophobic backwardness.
hooah212002 writes:
Is that what I said? I remember correcting you on this once already just a couple messages ago
Here is what you said:
Just because NC has "north" in it's title is not indicative of it's location in the US: it's still a southern state. I think it's clear that most, if not all, southern states are at a minimum a decade behind the remainder of the world as far as way of life and forward thinking is concerned.
So yes, you did suggest that the southern states were uniquely backwards ("a decade behind the remainder of the world"). And you offered that suggestion as an explanation for NC's brand new anti-gay marriage amendment. Your suggestion is nonsense, and I called you on it.
NoNukes writes:
Your statement was that NC enacted a anti-marriage amendment when they already had one.
Your response:
quote:
North Carolina voted Tuesday to outlaw same-sex marriage, which was already prohibited in the state.
You cannot correct your own statements by quoting someone else. What you said was that NC enacted an anti-gay marriage amendment when they already had one. Here is your exact, and incorrect wording with my emphasis added:
hooah212002 writes:
If the only criterion for being labeled as backwards was a constitutional amendment against homosexual unions, I wouldn't have said what I did. The difference here is that NC already had one and they felt necessary to add yet another.
If you meant to add some antecedent other than constitutional amendment, you did not do so. At least not before I called you on it. I'll also note that I acknowledged that NC statutes already banned gay when I called you on your own statement.
Is there a particular reason you keep mentioning Wisconsin?
Yes. The state is not in the south, and it happens to be where you live. WI and a number of other mid western states aren't all that different from NC in a number of ways. I believe that using WI points out the errors in your statement that NC is a decade behind non-southern states and makes the point that bigotry is far more widespread than you choose to acknowledge. As I also pointed out, 30 other states have constitutional amendments at least as oppressive as NC recently passed amendment, with a handful being even more repressive.
The vote makes North Carolina the 30th state to adopt a ban on gay marriage. While North Carolina law already bans same-sex marriage, the amendment means civil unions and potentially other types of domestic partnerships will no longer be recognized legally by the state.
Exactly so:
In fact, the quote also suggests that NC law, prior to passing the amendment, wasn't quite as oppressive as the law in WI.
ABE:
Quite frankly, I thinkTaz is right to be worried. While younger people seem to typically, have a more enlighted attitude about same-sex marriage, it appears that we are going to have to wait until the old foggies die off to see substantial changes in gay marriage laws. It is the case that in every state where the issue has been put to a popular vote, referendums to ban gay marriage have passed, and there are organizations that continue to back adding amendments to state constitutions all over the country.
Just how many southern states do you think there are anyway?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by hooah212002, posted 05-10-2012 8:11 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by xongsmith, posted 05-10-2012 12:36 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 338 by hooah212002, posted 05-10-2012 2:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2574
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 337 of 759 (661811)
05-10-2012 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by NoNukes
05-10-2012 9:12 AM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
NoNukes asks:
Just how many southern states do you think there are anyway?
Apparently at least 41 now.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by NoNukes, posted 05-10-2012 9:12 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 338 of 759 (661816)
05-10-2012 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by NoNukes
05-10-2012 9:12 AM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
What you said was that NC enacted an anti-gay marriage amendment when they already had one. Here is your exact, and incorrect wording with my emphasis added:
You are correct. I didn't realize I had typed "constitutional amendment" nor did I intend to, as I was referring to the law they had on the books. I figured as much was clear in my followup comments. So be it.
I will quote what I said a while ago:
If the only criterion for being labeled as backwards was a constitutional amendment against homosexual unions, I wouldn't have said what I did
to indicate that, while being the topic of this thread, gay marriage was only (barely) part of what I was talking about, yet you keep harping on that one subject. Furthermore, I was simply making an off the cuff remark about inbred rednecks in the south who hate niggers, fags, jews and all things progressive/liberal. You should note that all along, I have neither stated that the north doesn't have it's share of the same or that the south is 100% replete of them, but instead, I have said (over and fucking over) that a majority of the backwards shit is in the south.
Now, reply again saying how WI also has anti-gay marriage laws on the books. I'm done and this is off topic (well, I am. You keep drawing it back to be solely a discussion about gay marriage).

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by NoNukes, posted 05-10-2012 9:12 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by xongsmith, posted 05-10-2012 3:38 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 340 by NoNukes, posted 05-10-2012 9:33 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2574
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 339 of 759 (661823)
05-10-2012 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by hooah212002
05-10-2012 2:08 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
Hooah writes:
Now, reply again saying how WI also has anti-gay marriage laws on the books.
Wisconsin is one of the 41 southern states, Hooah.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by hooah212002, posted 05-10-2012 2:08 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 340 of 759 (661914)
05-10-2012 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by hooah212002
05-10-2012 2:08 PM


Re: North Carolina Amendment 1
hooah212 writes:
I will quote what I said a while ago:
If the only criterion for being labeled as backwards was a constitutional amendment against homosexual unions, I wouldn't have said what I did
to indicate that, while being the topic of this thread, gay marriage was only (barely) part of what I was talking about, yet you keep harping on that one subject.
Incredible. You've actually quote mined yourself.
Let's add some context by citing the rest of that sentence from Message 331:
If the only criterion for being labeled as backwards was a constitutional amendment against homosexual unions, I wouldn't have said what I did. The difference here is that NC already had one and they felt necessary to add yet another.
You do talk about some other things in the same paragraph, like abstinence only education (which you later had to back off of), and shoehorning religion into education. But let's not pretend that the point of the sentence you quote mined was not directed at NC anti-gay marriage stance.
Now, reply again saying how WI also has anti-gay marriage laws on the books.
Wisconsin and 30 other states, most of which are not southern states.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by hooah212002, posted 05-10-2012 2:08 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 341 of 759 (676070)
10-18-2012 10:09 PM


Second Circuit Court of Appeals strikes DOMA
Story here, includes link to full opinion.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(11)
Message 342 of 759 (676155)
10-20-2012 12:38 AM


Awesome twist at the end...
- Oni

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Panda, posted 10-20-2012 8:32 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 344 by subbie, posted 10-20-2012 12:40 PM onifre has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3703 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 343 of 759 (676173)
10-20-2012 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by onifre
10-20-2012 12:38 AM


Re: Awesome twist at the end...
That was brilliant.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by onifre, posted 10-20-2012 12:38 AM onifre has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 344 of 759 (676208)
10-20-2012 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by onifre
10-20-2012 12:38 AM


Re: Awesome twist at the end...
You bastard! I was gonna post that.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by onifre, posted 10-20-2012 12:38 AM onifre has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 154 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 345 of 759 (676219)
10-20-2012 2:57 PM


Ha!
My righteous anger was brimming over till the end part.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024