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Author Topic:   Genesis 1:1-5 — Day One
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 51 of 110 (662015)
05-11-2012 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
05-04-2012 11:44 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Hi CJ,
CJ writes:
Why was there no light when the Earth was made?
Who says there was no light when the Earth was created?
The Earth was created a long time before Genesis 1:2.
CJ writes:
Of course not! As the opening passages of Genesis tell us, Earth was first made;
In what part of Genesis do you find that information?
Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning created God, the heavens, and the earth".
My question to you CJ is:
Does the Earth exist in the Universe (heavens)?
If the Earth exists in the Universe then the Universe had to exist first, for the Earth to exist in it.
CJ writes:
Imagine the light existing first in the absence of anything. What do you imagine...?
Darkness!
No Thing can exist in non existence which an absence of anything is.
CJ writes:
So in the beginning, there was nothing. Then the Earth was formed.
What is your definition of nothing?
My definition is non existence.
If there was non existence then what was the Earth formed from and what caused the material to exist that the Earth was formed from?
Non existence would mean that not even God existed.
CJ writes:
Only then could light existbefore this time it would simply be called 'darkness'. Light was created to shine down and illuminate a world in creation (previously dark: Gen 1:2).
Are saying that before Genesis 1:2 which was only around 6,000 years ago there was no light?
Upon what information do you make that assertion?
There was no light created in Genesis 1:3. Light was made visible on Earth.
There was no lights created in Genesis 1:14.
The Hebrew word ברא transliterated bara'
and translated created refers to 3 events in the Bible. Genesis 1:1, 1:21, 1:27. All other references refer to one of these events.
There was no sun or moon created in Genesis 1:16. They were made visible from Earth.
There has been times when the Earth had a problem receiving light.
Here is an example from Science Daily.
Science Daily writes:
ScienceDaily (Jan. 18, 2007) About 65 million years ago, a massive disruption led to worldwide extinction of dinosaurs. The impact of a giant asteroid created massive tsunamis and spewed forth a global cloud of carbon gases that altered Earth's atmosphere and blocked the light for weeks, possibly years. In recent years, that impact event has been linked to a 112-mile-wide crater, dubbed Chicxulub, on the coast of Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2007/01/070118094039.htm
"Blocked out light for weeks, possibly years".
This situation would be similiar to the conditions found on Earth in Genesis 1:2. The difference would be the water did not act like a tsunami, but just covered all the land mass.
This would make it necessary for God to make the light visible again on earth.
Looking forward to your evidence or reasoning that light did not exist prior to Genesis 1:2.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 05-04-2012 11:44 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 05-12-2012 8:26 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 61 of 110 (662167)
05-13-2012 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Jon
05-12-2012 8:26 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Hi JC,
JC writes:
6,000 years ago? By what measuring standard?
Information found in the Bible and put together by Ussher in his choronology of the Bible.
JC writes:
What more reasoning could you require other than the simple fact that it is specifically stated as to when Light was created. There is, of course, nothing in the text to suggest that this was merely a 'making visible on Earth' event. It was a from-scratch creationprior to which everything was in darkness. There is no other way to read the text.
You haven't shown me in which verse in the Bible that "light" was "created".
Neither have you shown me in the Bible where the sun and moon was "created".
It says God made the lights in the heaven.
Nowhere does it say God ברא (created) the lights, sun, or moon.
God did say He עשה which was translated made in the KJV but the verb is in the niphal stem which when it is would mean "to be observed".
So where do you get a from-scratch creation?
CJ writes:
There is no other way to interpret the scientific evidence.
Since according to the Bible the events in Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3 took place just a little over 6,000 years ago, how do you get that to agree with science?
Science says the sun is about 4.5 billion years old.
So your sun and science disagree.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 05-12-2012 8:26 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Jon, posted 05-13-2012 7:02 AM ICANT has replied
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ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 65 of 110 (662209)
05-13-2012 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Jon
05-13-2012 7:02 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Hi CJ,
J writes:
Well that doesn't tell me the standard used. For example, by the standard of today's years, the Earth and Universe are most certainly more than 6,000 years old.
There was no measuring of duration until mankind was given the method for measuring duration during his journey here on Earth.
According to Genesis chapter 1 there was a light period which was called day. When that light period and a dark period was combined it was called day.
Every evening (the close of a light period) and the following morning (the end of a dark period) from the end of Day One has and will be a day until the end of time as mankind knows it.
Time is a concept which man has devised and decided to use to measure duration in existence. No other creature, or thing needs a clock.
CJ writes:
If this is your objection then you have no objection. My entire point from the OP forward has been that the light and heavenly bodies could not exist before there was matter and energy to form them from.
Then why ask this question in the OP?
CJ writes:
Why was there no light when the Earth was made?
In the OP you say "Earth was made when there was no light".
In the OP you say "There can be no light without something for it to illuminate".
In the OP you say "Earth was not made from the light, but light made for the Earth."
These three assertions sums up your OP.
CJ writes:
I do not see it as a necessary disagreement. It is a matter of missing information. While it is a little much to get into in this thread, the simplest explanation (and one that is consistent with other evidence) is that years were actually longer further back in the history of the Earth and Universe.
Longer based upon what?
When it takes a little less than 24 hours for the Earth to rotate 1 complete circle relative to the sun explain how that rotation was much slower in time past, and the problems that would create.
CJ writes:
The figure of 4.5 billion years is calculated with a modern year's time length as the standard.
The 4.5 billion years are caculated with man's concept of what constitutes a day, one complete rotation of the earth in relation to the sun (24 hrs) with 365.25 days equaling 1 year.
CJ writes:
The figure of 6k years is more or less calculated using both the modern and ancient length value of years.
The figure of 6k years is based on a day being one complete rotation of the earth in relation to the sun with 365.25 days equaling 1 year. Using the time of lifespans of mankind given in the Bible.
So no the 6k years is based on present day knowledge of what a year is today.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Jon, posted 05-13-2012 7:02 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Jon, posted 05-13-2012 4:34 PM ICANT has replied
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ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 66 of 110 (662210)
05-13-2012 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by bluescat48
05-13-2012 11:37 AM


light and life
Hi bluescat,
bluescat48 writes:
OLf course it's daft. The point is that if the sun did not exist, there would have been no life. The point is that no part of the spectrum was missing, therefore the sun existed before life, which is just the opposite of the biblical creation.
The Biblical creation teaches no such thing.
True Biblical creation teaches there was an inhabited Earth with living creatures from the beginning as related in Genesis 1:1 and the history of that day given in Genesis 2:4-4:25.
Those life forms and cities they had built were destroyed prior to Genesis 1:2, as they did not exist at that time.
Now a lot of people you have listened to in the past may have presented what you assert but that does not make it what is recorded in the Bible.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by bluescat48, posted 05-13-2012 11:37 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Jon, posted 05-13-2012 4:13 PM ICANT has replied
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ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 73 of 110 (662239)
05-14-2012 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Jon
05-13-2012 4:34 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Hi CJ,
CJ writes:
But as everyone knows, it is not the rotation of the Earth that determines the length of the years but rather its revolution around the Sun.
And how do you determine the duration that it takes for the Earth to make it's trip around the Sun?
CJ writes:
Where do you think the number 365.25 comes from? It is the number of days that pass during a complete revolution of the Sun by the Earth.
So you actually determine how long a year is by how many 24 hour days it takes for the Earth to make it's trip around the Sun.
And a 24 hour day is determined by how long it takes for the Earth to rotate 1 complete turn in relation to the Sun.
CJ writes:
What a contradiction! If the calculators are using information given in the Bible than they cannot be basing their figure on 'present day knowledge of what a year is today'.
Why not? The rotation speed of the Earth has not changed that much in the past 6k years.
Mr Ussher's chronology was completed in the 17 century.
quote:
The Ussher chronology is a 17th-century chronology of the history of the world formulated from a literal reading of the Bible by James Ussher, the Archbishop of Armagh (Church of Ireland).
Ussher chronology - Wikipedia
CJ writes:
Time then was differentit moved slower. Days were longer, years were longer, people lived longer; in almost every place time moved slower.
Time is a concept of man that he derived from God's light period and dark period that was a day to measure duration. So how does time change the speed of duration?
What difference does it make if you change the numbers?
If you wanted to use 48 hours for a day, would that change the duration from sunrise to sunrise? No it wouldn't.
If you wanted to use 730.5 days in a year, would that change the duration it takes for the Earth to make its journey around the Sun? No the length of duration would be the same.
You can not change duration.
CJ writes:
If we don't recognize that they are talking about years of a different length, then we will end up with numbers that are completely in contradiction to the evidence.
So explain how the duration from sunrise to sunrise changed.
You seem to want to have long periods of light followed by long periods of darkness.
I think you would have problems if the duration of a dark period was the same as a thousand years. It would get pretty cold and if it was followed by a period of light that was the same duration of a thousand years, I think it would get pretty warm.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Jon, posted 05-13-2012 4:34 PM Jon has not replied

  
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 74 of 110 (662243)
05-14-2012 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Jon
05-13-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Life before Genesis 1:2? - NOWAY!
Hi CJ,
CJ writes:
Please point me to the part of the text that describes the life forms existing before Genesis 1:2.
quote:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
So the heavens and the Earth began to exist in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 2:4 claims to be the history (generations) of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
They both existed in Genesis 1:1.
quote:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The first living life form on planet Earth.
quote:
Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Vegetation the second life forms on planet Earth.
quote:
Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
The third life forms on planet Earth.
If you pay close attention all of these life forms were either planted or formed from the dust of the ground.
quote:
Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
The first life form that was not derived from the ground.
That takes care of the animals that inhabited the Earth in the day the Lord God created the heavens and the Earth.
CJ writes:
Please point me to the part of the text that describes the cities existing before Genesis 1:2.
quote:
Genesis 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
That was the first city built and it was built during the day the Lord God created the heavens and the Earth as it is part of the history of that day.
quote:
Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
Jeremiah gives a discription of the Earth as we find it in Genesis 1:2 and then relates that the cities have been destroyed and there is no man nor birds.
Peter tells us it was covered with water as we find in Genesis 1:2.
quote:
2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Some people think Peter was talking about the flood of Noah but he was not. In the flood of Noah all life did not perish.
In verse 6 Peter said the world perished.
Science tells us there was many times that most life forms perished and had to rebuild.
I believe that all life forms perished and had to be restarted many times, in the day the Lord God created the heavens and the Earth.
CJ writes:
Yet no mention of living creatures. Just that strange word, 'void'... I wonder what it means.
The Hebrew word בהו that is translated void in Genesis 1:2 means emptiness.
The Earth was created to be inhabited.
quote:
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
The same Hebrew word תהו translated vain here is the same word translated without form in Genesis 1:2.
Isaiah said God did not create the mess found in Genesis 1:2.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 75 of 110 (662244)
05-14-2012 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by bluescat48
05-13-2012 4:55 PM


Re: light and life
Hi bluescat,
bluescat48 writes:
Where do you get the following?
ICANT writes:
True Biblical creation teaches there was an inhabited Earth with living creatures from the beginning as related in Genesis 1:1 and the history of that day given in Genesis 2:4-4:25.
Genesis 1:1 and the history of the day the Lord God created the heavens and the earth as given in Genesis 2:4-4:25.
bluescat48 writes:
Also considering Gen 1 & Gen 2 are from different sources compiled over 100 years apart. Gen 1 is Priestly & Gen 2 is Yahvist.
You can consider anything you want to consider.
The book of Genesis was written by Moses as the children of Israel wander in the wilderness for 40 years.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by bluescat48, posted 05-13-2012 4:55 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by bluescat48, posted 05-14-2012 2:10 AM ICANT has replied
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ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 78 of 110 (662277)
05-14-2012 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by bluescat48
05-14-2012 2:10 AM


Re: light and life
Hi bluescat,
bluescat48 writes:
Pure mythology. How did he write it when the israelites didn't have an alphabet until they allied themselves with The phoenicians ~950BCE, and adopted their alphabet?
Egypt had writing 3000 BC and Moses was educated in the house of Pharoah as he was raised as the Pharoah's grandson. So Moses knew how to read and write.
I will not present more evidence as we are off topic.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by bluescat48, posted 05-14-2012 2:10 AM bluescat48 has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 80 of 110 (662536)
05-16-2012 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NoNukes
05-15-2012 11:37 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Hi No,
NoNukes writes:
The problem with your assertion is that every single one of the combined dark/light cycles on earth during a year is of a different length.
Where did I state otherwise.
I simply said a light period and a dark period constitutes a day.
Does it take 365.25 light periods regardless of their length and 365.25 dark periods regardless of their length to be a year?
Is this the exact amount of light periods and dark periods that it takes for the Earth to revolve around the sun?
Isn't the duration of a revolution of the Earth at the equator used to measure the duration of the revolution of the Earth?
NoNukes writes:
The truth of the matter is that we don't use dark/light cycles to define the hour or any other unit of time. The units we use are roughly equivalent in duration to units based on an average or mean solar day.
How is the duration of those units determined?
Is it determined by the amount of duration it takes the Earth to revolve one complete revolution on it's axis at the equator?
With that duration being divided up into hours, which is divided up into minutes, which is divided up into seconds, which can be divided up into 1e+12 picoseconds.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 05-15-2012 11:37 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 83 of 110 (662588)
05-17-2012 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by NoNukes
05-16-2012 6:33 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Hi No,
NoNukes writes:
I'm not going to join you in equivocating.
Indulge me.
Does it take exactly 23 hours and 56 minutes for the Earth to turn 360 on it axis?
Is this increasing over duration due to the Earth slowing down?
Does it then take 4 minutes for the Earth to finish turning towards the sun due to Earth's travel around the sun?
NoNukes writes:
The term day can also refer to the period during a solar day in which the sun is above the horizon.
Which I refer to as a light period, regardless of the length of duration.
NoNukes writes:
Additionally a year might be a tropical year, and it might also refer to the period of time between Jan 1, 2012 and Jan 1, 2013 in which case that particular year would be 366 days.
Is that leap year of 366 days to make up for the .2422th day per year
that is not accounted for in our calendar?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by NoNukes, posted 05-16-2012 6:33 PM NoNukes has replied

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ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 85 of 110 (662593)
05-17-2012 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
05-16-2012 4:11 PM


Re: light and life
Hi CS,
Catholic Scientist writes:
There's 26 verses in Genesis 4. Why don't you explain to us why you have to leave the last one out?
Actually, unless my memory fails me I leave 2 verses of chapter 4 out as I do not agree with the division into chapters made by Stephen Langton, an Archbishop of Canterbury.
My reasons for doing so is that there are 8 generations of people mentioned prior to the person known as Seth being born. Yet he was said to be born when his father was 120 years old. You do the math.
The second reason is that the book of the generations recorded in chapter 5 of the man created in Genesis 1:27 does not include any of the people in Genesis chapter 2:4 through 4:24.
The third reason is that the people in Genesis 2:4 through 4:24 have no ages attached to any of them. In fact there is only 2 deaths recorded of any of these people.
As I have stated to you several times if you would like to discuss this further, start a thread and make your arguments why you hold the position you hold.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-16-2012 4:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 87 of 110 (662720)
05-18-2012 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by NoNukes
05-17-2012 12:31 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Hi No,
NoNukes writes:
But again, that is just calendar stuff. It does not affect the clock. We make changes to the calendar so that the seasons stay on relatively stable dates.
Are you agreeing that everything as far as time is concerned, days, week, months, and years has to be adjusted to reality?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2012 12:31 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 90 of 110 (662758)
05-18-2012 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by NoNukes
05-18-2012 1:36 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Hi No,
NoNukes writes:
On the other hand, clocks when properly maintained, do measure time intervals of exactly fixed duration, and atomic clocks do so incredibly accurately.
So why do they have to be adjusted?
quote:
Keeping the Earth on time
Around the world, to satisfy the requirements of navigators, communication organizations and scientific groups, about 200 atomic clocks in over 50 national laboratories worldwide will be adjusted at local times corresponding to midnight to local times at Greenwich. On New Year's Eve, the master clock at the United States Naval Observatory will be adjusted at 6:59:60 p.m. EST, or 23:59:60 GMT.
The extra second is needed to keep the world's clocks in time with the rotation of the planet. Time measured by the rotation of the Earth is not uniform when compared to time kept by atomic clocks. Today's atomic clocks have an inaccuracy of less than one second in 200 million years.
http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/blog/tags/atomic-clock
Seems to me like the atomic clock is adjusted to reality. The real time that Earth revolves on it axis. That means time is a concept of man devised to measure duration.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2012 1:36 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 92 of 110 (662797)
05-18-2012 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by NoNukes
05-18-2012 4:38 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Hi No,
NoNukes writes:
We have leap years simply because the year is not an exact a multiple of the either a 24 hour period, or the mean solar day. None of that has anything to do with adjusting non-reality to reality.
quote:
Scientists have reliable data on the Earth's rotational speed, based on observations of the sun's position in the sky during solar eclipses, going back some 2,500 years. Although the rotational rate hasn’t declined smoothly, over that period the average day has grown longer by between 15 millionths and 25 millionths of a second every year.
I've Heard That The Earth's Rotation Is Slowing. How Long Until Days Last 25 Hours?
If the average reduction in the Earth's rotation is between 15 millionths and 25 millionths of a second every year.
Why is a leap second added on average of every 1 1/2 years?
Using the 25 millionth of a second reduction it wouldn't it take 40,000 years to require a leap second?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2012 4:38 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by NoNukes, posted 05-18-2012 7:26 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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