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Author Topic:   Did Dinosaurs live with man?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 11 of 373 (662717)
05-18-2012 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ScottyDouglas
05-18-2012 3:55 AM


Bones
The bones, Scotty, the bones.
Where are the bones?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-18-2012 3:55 AM ScottyDouglas has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 47 of 373 (662816)
05-18-2012 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ScottyDouglas
05-18-2012 3:55 AM


On being wrong...
Scotty, by now you have read the posts responding to your initial post and pointing out a huge number of errors.
I have a couple of serious questions I'd like to ask:
1) Did you not realize the information you were relying on was erroneous? Did some websites or creationists you trusted provide you with false information that you then posted here?
2) In either case, what good does it do for any cause to be associated with such erroneous claims? Certainly in science there is no benefit in being wrong--it is a disgrace at best and often a disaster to one's career. Is it different for creationists?
I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-18-2012 3:55 AM ScottyDouglas has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by foreveryoung, posted 05-30-2012 2:25 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 99 of 373 (664762)
06-05-2012 12:02 AM


Horse feathers!
Feathers or not, dinos didn't live at the same time man did.
Minor discrepancy of ca. 65 million years.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by arachnophilia, posted 06-05-2012 12:49 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 101 of 373 (664769)
06-05-2012 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by arachnophilia
06-05-2012 12:49 AM


Re: Horse feathers!
Don't pick nits, it's unbecoming. And you'll just confuse the creationists.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by arachnophilia, posted 06-05-2012 12:49 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by arachnophilia, posted 06-05-2012 3:11 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 109 of 373 (695693)
04-08-2013 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-08-2013 6:44 PM


No, the case here is much stronger than that for reality of elves, hobbits and goblins. The dragon stories and descriptions are very similar and universal. Most dragon legends are about actual fighting the demonized beasts and it is a well known habit of the devious simian to over-demonise the enemies it massacres or wipes out completely, says the feline.
Where are the bones?
We have bones from everything back to early dinosaurs, but no dragon bones.
Where are the dragon bones?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-08-2013 6:44 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-08-2013 8:20 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 114 of 373 (695705)
04-08-2013 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-08-2013 8:20 PM


Still no dragon bones
Some claim the Chinese are finding loads of dragon bones and stuff.
If you were to do a simple web search you would find that "dragon bones" is a term the Chinese use to describe any fossil. They use them in herbal medicines.
There are no real dragon bones found by paleontologists. Dragons are imaginary creatures, much like hobbits, elves, and deities.
Others say Dawkins and his gang collect the bones and now they are all hidden up his arse. They say he hides them there in order not to lose face in a debate with the intelligent designers. I don't know as I did not double-check on either claim.
Your crudity says far more about you than it does about Dawkins.
How can you expect anyone to take what you say seriously when that is the apex of your discussion?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-08-2013 8:20 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by hooah212002, posted 04-08-2013 10:23 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 117 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-08-2013 11:01 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 118 of 373 (695720)
04-08-2013 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-08-2013 11:01 PM


Re: Still no dragon bones
Coy, for you a good web search might be a basis enough to believe or disbelieve anything. This is a religious approach. The cat is more scientifically inclined than that.
Well, I have a little more than a web search to go on. Half my Ph.D. training was in the field of fossil man and human osteology, but it included a lot of mammalian osteology as well. I get calls about once a month to help the local Coroner identify bones, and we are always digging up bones of all sorts. Got some grizzly bear bones a couple of weeks ago. So I''m not exactly unfamiliar with the subject of osteology—as you seem to be.
His own [the cat's] or any one else's beliefs and assertions about anything do not bother him in the least. They are irrelevant in science.
Beliefs and assertions are rubbish, but science has evidence and that is relevant in science. And that evidence is that there are no dragon bones! You don't believe it, all you have to do is produce evidence that there are. And you better make it good, as you are going against the informed opinions and evidence of tens of thousands of experts.
He needs to understand whether something is possible or not. In this case both claims are possible ones. It could be that the Chinese lie about the bones and it would not surprise anybody if the palaeontologists do.
"Possible" is a nonsense claim. Let's stick to evidence instead. Elves, leprechauns, unicorns, and trolls are "possible" if you stretch the term, but of those critters the only one we have evidence for is trolls (this thread is proof positive that they exist).

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-08-2013 11:01 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-08-2013 11:39 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 121 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-09-2013 9:00 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 120 of 373 (695726)
04-09-2013 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
04-08-2013 11:39 PM


Re: Still no dragon bones
Sure!
The Chinese have a long tradition of "dragon" bones. They are just fossils.
Some of the Gigantopithecus teeth were found in Chinese herbal shops, if I remember correctly.
But that doesn't make them dragons.
If there were really dragons running around at about any time in the past we should have found bones or fossils. We haven't.
Ergo, they didn't exist. More creationist wishful thinking.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-08-2013 11:39 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 124 of 373 (695788)
04-09-2013 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-09-2013 9:00 AM


Re: Still no dragon bones
So, Coy, if you are an expert bone picker you expect the cat to take your opinions as gospel? Listen, mate, the Cheshire does not care for the YEC agenda but he cares even less for you lot's bigbangist creationist one. The legends and depictions show persistent uniformity and correspondence to later palaeontological reconstructions of the beasts. Were the mythologists better skilled bone-pickers than yourself? What kind of beasts St. George and his simian buddies really massacred?
All rhetoric, no answer to the question.
Where are the bones?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-09-2013 9:00 AM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-09-2013 12:06 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 126 of 373 (695804)
04-09-2013 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-09-2013 12:06 PM


Re: Still no dragon bones
Coy, are you dense or something? If dragons and dinosaurs are synonyms, then dinosaur and dragon bones is the same phenomenon.
You have just destroyed your own argument.
Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, so there was no overlap with humans.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-09-2013 12:06 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-09-2013 12:49 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 130 of 373 (695837)
04-09-2013 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-09-2013 12:49 PM


Re: Still no dragon bones
No, that would hold only if we take for granted that all of your chronology is a gospel set in eternal stone. There is no need to take such a fond assumption as a gospel truth. You may have no clue about what happened last week to your neighbour yet you arrogantly assert being privy to the details of the dragon extinction. Keep your gall in check and learn a bit of humility.
Your assertions, which are contradicted by a century or two of scientific evidence, are meaningless without evidence to support them.
If you doubt the chronology established by scientists from all over the world, produce evidence to the contrary. Unsupported claims are useless. And your unsupported claims do not make the evidence accumulated by scientists go away no matter how often you repeat them. For that you need evidence.
Care to provide some?
(See signature block--those lines seem most apt in your case.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-09-2013 12:49 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 133 of 373 (695849)
04-09-2013 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-09-2013 4:17 PM


Re: Still no dragon bones
That does not tell much to the feline, Vatican.
Right, you can always tell a troll, but you can't tell him much.
Fossilised simians are found too. The jury is out on this one.
Fossilized hominids are not found in the same strata as fossilized dinosaurs. You're off by nearly 65 million years.
Pliny the Elder claimed to be dinosaurs contemporary.
Pliny the Elder was wrong.
The cat does not see any reason to trust Coy's word on that more. It might well be that it was the simians who wiped the dragons out and not any meteor, Vatican.
It is not just me, it is tens of thousands of scientists, who collectively know quite a lot. They say you are wrong and you have presented no evidence to show otherwise.
Until you have evidence there is no reason for anyone to listen to a thing you say.
And the easiest evidence for you to prove the presence of dragons during historic times would be dragon bones in historic contexts.
So where are the bones?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-09-2013 4:17 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-10-2013 1:15 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 136 of 373 (695944)
04-10-2013 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-10-2013 1:15 PM


Re: Still no dragon bones
The cat has said the dragon issue is wide open. Do you get it? Are you trying to impress the moggy with the formidable size of your congregation and the choir you sing to, Coy the Expert Choir Boy? Ooh, the Cheshire is all terrified and trembling...
Listen, the cat is ready to hear the views expressed by both creationist sects. No favours though will be granted to neo-darwinians. Their theoretical record is very poor so their credibility is compromised severely. Understand? Nor your second-hand opinions may be given advantage over those reported by Pliny and numerous others.
As to Pliny whom you are patronising here this is what he is coming back at you with: "Among these things, one thing seems certain - that nothing certain exists and that there is nothing more laughable and more presumptuous that the learned simian." Especially when his name is Coy the Expert Choir Boy, adds the Cheshire.
So you can't come up with any bones then?
So noted.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-10-2013 1:15 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-10-2013 4:08 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 138 of 373 (695960)
04-10-2013 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-10-2013 4:08 PM


Re: Still no dragon bones
Listen, Coy, you are a bone-picker, not me. So stop your religious nonsense and haul instead your expert ass over there. To places where Herodotus, Pliny, Red Indians and others reported meeting and fighting the dinos. Look for more bones to challenge your own thesis. Otherwise, as I said your whole chronology is nothing set in stone. They are finding fresh cells and stuff in the dragon bones assumed to stay a hundred million of years idle.
I've found lots of bones in my career. Couple of weeks ago we came up with a nice grizzly bear mandible and a few other parts of a bear skeleton. We got hundreds of bones, mostly sea mammal and elk, on another project a few weeks before that.
But no dinosaur bones and no dragon bones. My archaeologist colleagues across the country likewise report no dinosaur bones or dragon bones in Native American sites.
You seem to be letting old myths color your thinking to the point that you have lost the ability to deal with reality. In other words, you are flat-out wrong.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-10-2013 4:08 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-10-2013 5:03 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 140 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-10-2013 6:05 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 141 of 373 (695987)
04-10-2013 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Alfred Maddenstein
04-10-2013 6:05 PM


Re: Still no dragon bones
Coy boy is as sly and evasive as a shy girl. The issue put to you was that some of your chronology must be revised. It is either that protein decays rates are not what they are believed to be or it's that the dragon bones already found are of an unknown age anyway. Your elk and bears red-herrings don't impress the feline. The cat has just read something about them examining dino eggs fresh enough to guess the stages of the embryo. Shouldn't the eggs have crumbled to fine dust in next to 200 hundred million years?
Ignorance of the facts does not make a persuasive argument, nor do your colloquialisms help your case.
Care to put up or shut up? Where are all the dragon bones?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-10-2013 6:05 PM Alfred Maddenstein has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 04-11-2013 9:02 AM Coyote has replied

  
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