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Author Topic:   Is truth or evidence more important in science and evolution?
jar
Member
Posts: 29035
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(4)
Message 46 of 55 (662668)
05-17-2012 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 6:29 PM


Re: where's the evidence?
Word salad.

No one is trying to disprove God, that's irrelevant.

But you made a claim about something you claimed happened.

I asked a simple question. How did you test to make sure it was God not just a bad burrito?

Nothing in the Bible says you need to have faith to understand the Bible. Have you ever read one?

The topic is one of those really worthless questions.

The way you know something is true is by testing it, whether it is the Bible or Science.

Now if you want to come here and claim that "you think you experienced God", then folk might laugh a little or even ask what it was like, but that's about it.

The important thing about science, the reason that science is really, really important, is that faith has absolutely no effect on truth or reality. Science shows us that it don't matter how much faith you have, reality trumps faith every time.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 6:29 PM ScottyDouglas has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 6:52 PM jar has responded

  
ScottyDouglas
Member (Idle past 1774 days)
Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 47 of 55 (662669)
05-17-2012 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
05-16-2012 10:09 AM


Re: where's the evidence?
Why would I test and make sure it was God in the first place if it overcame me? Seems because someone who has no faith can not recieve God that is my problem. That because I hear and feel the presence of God then there is something wrong with me. When I feel the Creator an you do not who is outside reality?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 05-16-2012 10:09 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
ScottyDouglas
Member (Idle past 1774 days)
Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 48 of 55 (662670)
05-17-2012 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
05-17-2012 6:45 PM


Re: where's the evidence?
Trumps it where? Reality? What if what you percieve as real isnt? I esplained my reasons an gave a portion of my testimony but that is not good enough. Fact is to all you Godless people nothing will be good enough. God came to me and spoke and revealed himself to me that is truth. Careless if you believe it or not. I do care if you never experience it because you will death without truth. But you do not care. You want God to show he is real and if he does not then He aint. Doesnt work that way slim.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 6:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 7:02 PM ScottyDouglas has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29035
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 49 of 55 (662673)
05-17-2012 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 6:52 PM


Re: where's the evidence?
ScottyDouglas writes:

Why would I test and make sure it was God in the first place if it overcame me? Seems because someone who has no faith can not recieve God that is my problem. That because I hear and feel the presence of God then there is something wrong with me. When I feel the Creator an you do not who is outside reality?

What makes you think you weren't overcome by Satan?

And perhaps you need to learn a little more before you attempt to try to say what I think or believe.

ScottyDouglas writes:

Trumps it where? Reality? What if what you percieve as real isnt? I esplained my reasons an gave a portion of my testimony but that is not good enough. Fact is to all you Godless people nothing will be good enough. God came to me and spoke and revealed himself to me that is truth. Careless if you believe it or not. I do care if you never experience it because you will death without truth. But you do not care. You want God to show he is real and if he does not then He aint. Doesnt work that way slim.

Scotty, Scotty, Scotty.

I test what I perceive to find out if it is real or not. It really is that simple.

But remember, the Bible shows that the Goats will be believers, and the Sheep unbelievers. Remember where they get sent.

And again, it would be wise if you actually learned a little before you tried telling me what I think and believe.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 6:52 PM ScottyDouglas has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 10:10 PM jar has responded

  
ScottyDouglas
Member (Idle past 1774 days)
Posts: 79
Joined: 05-10-2012


Message 50 of 55 (662684)
05-17-2012 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
05-17-2012 7:02 PM


Re: where's the evidence?
Your words and discontent speaks of what you believe. As does mine.

And at the time I could not tell you I was not overcome by satan. Other than that spirit told me to ask for forgiveness and bow down and confess my sins and ask Jesus to save me. I was overcome with this thought and feeling. At times I do things I am so ashamed of I question how I could do these things if I had God. But I know I do and I feel him. He convicts me and comforts me. He blesses me. I have had many hardaches in this life and I always look at as im blessed. I have a positive attitude and no nonsense type attitude. I do not hold anger and resentment. I forgive and love. But sometimes I do not communicate well and do not understand. I am guilty there.
I do not understand how people do not feel and know God because I do and it has been easy. I have always had this feeling it feels like I have and I am thankful for it.

Edited by ScottyDouglas, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 7:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 05-17-2012 10:15 PM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 05-17-2012 10:16 PM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29035
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 51 of 55 (662685)
05-17-2012 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 10:10 PM


Re: where's the evidence?
You were eight years old, your brain had not yet fully developed and you had no experience or training in critical thinking.

You have obviously not read my words and I have absolutely no idea what discontent you see.

And that still has no relevance to this topic that I can see.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 10:10 PM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9651
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 52 of 55 (662686)
05-17-2012 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 10:10 PM


Re: where's the evidence?
I cannot speak for jar, but I had the impression that you were saying that God had taught you a bunch of stuff about physics and biology. The feelings you have that God spoke to you about regarding your sins and forgiveness don't seem to be about any of that.

Surely your point cannot be that science cannot provide you with salvation, because nobody ever claimed otherwise.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 10:10 PM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 53 of 55 (662687)
05-17-2012 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 6:42 PM


Mumbo jumbo
Word salad.

I see you continue to refuse to answer my questions. Guess that means that ll you have is mumbo-jumbo and woo.

Maybe you can reread my two previous posts and actually address them instead of just spouting more bullshit.
Message 43
Message 19

If something is beyond science then how can science achieve it?

This sentence means nothing.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 6:42 PM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18658
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 54 of 55 (662718)
05-18-2012 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 6:29 PM


Re: where's the evidence?
Hi ScottyDouglas,

First off I do not need evidence. I do not have to prove anything. I do not have to show God exists. ...

Correct, you do not need evidence for faith, in fact it is not faith when you have evidence:

quote:
World English Dictionary
faith --n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
2. a specific system of religious beliefs: the Jewish faith
3. Christianity trust in God and in his actions and promises
4. a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason.

You can have such faith in all kinds of things without any need to have evidence for them.

But any such belief without evidence is no more valid than any other.

... I do not have to explain how I exsperienced him. I did. ...

That is your subjective evidence, and your reason for your specific belief.

This is your conjecture, your untested (by objective empirical evidence) hypothesis, of what happened.

... You havent. That is not my fault nor my problem. You havent. That seems to be peoples problem. ...

It is only your problem when you want other people to believe what you believe, then you need more than personal subjective evidence, you need evidence that can be shared.

... . That seems to be peoples problem. The read the Bible and say this is hocus pocus ... The Bible says many times over and over that you must have faith. How can someone attempt to read and understand a book that requires faith when you have none?

What I see is that everyone has a different interpretation, including among believers, so I don't find it a credible evidence for a specific belief.

How many different sects and cults are built around the bible? Which one is correct or are they all correct, having used the same evidence? Do not all these people have faith?

... You can not discredit something that is not provable in the first place. ...

Nor can you logically credit something that is not provable in the first place. The open minded skeptic says that we don't know.

The topic is: truth or evidence which is more important in science and evolution? Answer - evidence. Hints no faith and therefore not capable of understanding truth and furthermore God.

As a deist I have faith (belief without evidence) in the existence of god/s, but I also believe that knowledge based on evidence is more important than specific beliefs, especially when that knowledge based on evidence contradicts belief.

If I believe that bumblebees cannot fly based on math, then the observation that bumblebees fly shows the belief to be invalid, not the observation.

Evidence overrides belief, and as such knowledge based on evidence is a closer approximation to truth about reality than simple belief or untested hypothesis.

You want us to believe that you believe what you believe, fine, all you need to do is state it.

You want us to believe what you believe, then you need to show us a reason for it, show us the evidence that it is a valid belief.

You want us to believe that your belief is true, then you need to provide evidence that this is so.

Message 45: Im not refusing science and thier methods. I know science seeks physical reality. I applaud that. Going beyond our physical reality to make calculations and predictions is not truth. God reveals himself to someone they can not prove it and most cases are though as fantasing. That does not mean they are in fantasy though and what they experienced is real. ...

The experience was real, what it involved is conjecture until it is validated.

The open-minded skeptic is equally skeptical of his own hypothetical beliefs as he is those of others.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : added


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ScottyDouglas, posted 05-17-2012 6:29 PM ScottyDouglas has not yet responded

  
Sigmund
Junior Member (Idle past 1608 days)
Posts: 4
From: Baltimore, MD
Joined: 05-23-2012


(2)
Message 55 of 55 (663350)
05-23-2012 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ScottyDouglas
05-17-2012 6:29 PM


Re: where's the evidence?
Well, I had to register and contribute for the first time just address a couple of your posts. Congratulations!

Message 44 you havent

How do you know what anyone else has experienced?

Answer - evidence. Hints[sic] no faith and therefore not capable of understanding truth and furthermore God.

This is completely wrong. The fact that evidence is of primary importance in science (evolution is part of science), has no bearing on the capability of understanding God. People do not have faith in God because of objective evidence, they simply have faith in God. No evidence is necessary. In fact, requiring evidence is the antithesis of faith.

Message 45 Going beyond our physical reality to make calculations and predictions is not truth.

Which is why when science does attempt to go beyond our physical reality, (for instance, to speculate on conditions prior to the Big Bang), it not presented as "truth" but merely an hypothesis.

Science only can determine physical means and anything outside that is beyond what science can offer.

You're exactly right here. Science can only deal with what can be physically measured and tested and experimented on. Hence, science does not, and can never, take a position for or against God. Of course some do claim that the findings of science rule God unnecessary but that is THEIR opinion, not science's.

If something is beyond science then how can science achieve it?

It can't and that is a self-imposed limitation of science. As mentioned above, science can only rule out possibilities, and God as supernatural causative agent can never be ruled out by science. However, certain interpretations of HOW God did things can be eliminated (such as a literal 6,000 yo universe or a global flood event 4,360 years ago) can be eliminated due to lack of any evidence whatsoever.

They can not they would need other sources and experts.

Except that science doesn't concern itself with things outside its reach. Certain scientists might attempt to do that but science as a methodology does not.

Edited by Sigmund, : Wrong date for flood


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