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Author Topic:   What's the problem with teaching ID?
jar
Member
Posts: 30368
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 241 of 337 (664949)
06-06-2012 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 8:10 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
So you are claiming that the asserted designer used the tools and techniques used today?

I assume that you have evidence of the lab?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:10 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:20 PM jar has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 242 of 337 (664950)
06-06-2012 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
06-06-2012 8:14 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
SETI detects a radio signal from outer space consisting of the first 500 prime numbers. Through high-tech analysis, they determine that this is not noise from our own planet. They infer design. Do they have the lab that made the machine that generated the radio signal?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:14 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:24 PM Genomicus has responded
 Message 254 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2012 9:05 PM Genomicus has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30368
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 243 of 337 (664951)
06-06-2012 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 8:20 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
SETI has not asserted that they have received such a signal.

If and when they do, yes, they will have to present a convincing model of how the signal was generated.

Incredulous Design is still just a joke.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:20 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:30 PM jar has responded
 Message 249 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2012 8:50 PM jar has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 244 of 337 (664953)
06-06-2012 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by jar
06-06-2012 8:24 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
SETI has not asserted that they have received such a signal.

I didn't say they did.

If and when they do, yes, they will have to present a convincing model of how the signal was generated.

That wasn't the issue I brought up. I specifically asked if they would have to have the lab where the machinery was made that generated the signal before inferring design.

Incredulous Design is still just a joke.

I'm talking about intelligent design, jar. Why must you label it with silly names and stuff? I know you mean well, but c'mon, you don't have to be even a little bit snarky. Just saying

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:24 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:38 PM Genomicus has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30368
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 245 of 337 (664955)
06-06-2012 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 8:30 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
ID is a joke. There is absolutely nothing to take seriously about ID.

And "Yes, SETI will have to have the lab or at least the location of the lab that generated the signal."

They will have to show where the signal originated, document there actually is something at that location, and then the criticism will begin.

They will have to be able to duplicate the lab, the tools, everything involved in generating teh signal.

The data, the assumptions, the source, the model, the method, the mechanics of the signal will be challenged and they will not be able to infer design.

Further, until some other independent unaffiliated organization can duplicate the findings it will still be labeled as "Unknown".

AbE:

and so far all the evidence supports Inept Design over Intelligent Design.

It really is that simple.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:30 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:43 PM jar has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 246 of 337 (664956)
06-06-2012 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
06-06-2012 8:38 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Unfortunately, the SETI scientists disagree with you. They don't think they'd need to lab, the tools, etc. The same goes for cryptographers. They don't need the machine that was needed that encoded a message before inferring that an apparently random string of symbols was in fact deliberately arranged. You're basically doing away with SETI science, cryptography, archaeology (you don't need to know how a pyramid was constructed to know that it was deliberately designed), and the folks who detect fraud, in say, the lottery (you don't need to know how the fraud was carried out to know that something fishy is going on with this guy who has won 50 times in a row).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:49 PM Genomicus has responded
 Message 248 by Coyote, posted 06-06-2012 8:50 PM Genomicus has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30368
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 247 of 337 (664957)
06-06-2012 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 8:43 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Of course you need to know how it was done.

It fun I imagine making stuff up, but until it is tested, examined, duplicated it is still just fantasy.

AbE:

And there is still nothing to teach or even research involving ID.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:43 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:55 PM jar has responded

  
Coyote
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Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 248 of 337 (664958)
06-06-2012 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 8:43 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID...
I have a question for you:

What would the lesson plan for ID look like?

And could it avoid an argument from incredulity, i.e., "We haven't figured this out yet so it must have been done through supernatural means?"

Isn't ID just an effort to introduce the supernatural into public school education so that an alternative is presented to scientific explanations?

If this is not the case, what would the lesson plan for ID look like?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:43 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Genomicus, posted 06-07-2012 11:11 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10620
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 249 of 337 (664959)
06-06-2012 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by jar
06-06-2012 8:24 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
If and when they do, yes, they will have to present a convincing model of how the signal was generated.

This task might not be the least bit difficult. There are huge numbers of ways to program a machine to generate prime numbers. As long as the signal was not from a source that was seemingly impossible to control or modulate, it would be more difficult to imagine a natural source that generated the first 500 prime numbers.

Genomicus point is simply that it might be possible to have indirect evidence for a designer. I agree, at least in principle. Just because specified complexity and irreducible complexity are abject failures does not mean that no other tool indirect evidence can exist.

ID is junk. The current state of ID does indeed seem to be argument by incredibility of "evolution".


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:24 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:52 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 253 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:57 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30368
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 250 of 337 (664960)
06-06-2012 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by NoNukes
06-06-2012 8:50 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
And if and when they do provide something to test it will be tested, just as it has been in each case.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2012 8:50 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 251 of 337 (664961)
06-06-2012 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by jar
06-06-2012 8:49 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Of course you need to know how it was done.

Why don't you take that up with the SETI scientists, cryptographers, and archaeologists? You're basically doing away with a whole bunch of peer-reviewed papers which rely on the fact that you don't have to know how X was designed in order to infer design. So, really, I have nothing to worry with your idea since I have many, many, many scientists to back up my methodology of inferring design.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:49 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:56 PM Genomicus has responded
 Message 257 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-06-2012 9:19 PM Genomicus has responded
 Message 307 by Taq, posted 06-07-2012 1:58 PM Genomicus has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30368
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 252 of 337 (664962)
06-06-2012 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 8:55 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Bring them on.

Give me a cite and we will look at it.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:55 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 9:05 PM jar has responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 253 of 337 (664963)
06-06-2012 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by NoNukes
06-06-2012 8:50 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Genomicus point is simply that it might be possible to have indirect evidence for a designer.

Correct. I disagree with the use of specified complexity to infer design, and irreducible complexity in itself is not a signal of design since non-teleological processes can produce IC systems.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2012 8:50 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16015
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 254 of 337 (664965)
06-06-2012 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 8:20 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
SETI detects a radio signal from outer space consisting of the first 500 prime numbers. Through high-tech analysis, they determine that this is not noise from our own planet. They infer design. Do they have the lab that made the machine that generated the radio signal?

No, but they have machines that generate radio signals.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:20 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 9:08 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 846
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 255 of 337 (664966)
06-06-2012 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
06-06-2012 8:56 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Arnold, L. Transit Light-Curve Signatures Of Artificial Objects. The Astrophysical Journal, 627:534539 (2005).

Here's the abstract:
The forthcoming space missions, able to detect Earth-like planets by the transit method, will a fortiori also be able to detect the transits of artificial planet-sized objects. Multiple artificial objects would produce light curves easily distinguishable from natural transits. If only one artificial object transits, detecting its artificial nature becomes more difficult. We discuss the case of three different objects (triangle, two-screen, and louver-like six-screen) and show that they have transit light curves distinguishable from the transits of natural planets, either spherical or oblate, although an ambiguity with the transit of a ringed planet exists in some cases."

Specific points the author makes:

"Current Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) programs concentrate on the search for radio or optical laser pulses emissions (Tarter 2001). We propose here an alternative approach for a new SETI: considering that artificial planet-size bodies may exist around other stars, and that such objects always transit in front of their parent star for a given remote observer, we may thus have an opportunity to detect and even characterize them by the transit method, assuming these transits are distinguishable from a simple planetary transit..."

A point here, too:
"We have shown that detecting an artificial object from its transit lightcurve shape requires an excellent photometric accuracy."

You see, according to this paper, we can infer that an object is artificial based on its transit lightcurve shape.

More:
"Transit of artificial objects also could be a mean for interstellar communication from Earth in the future. We therefore suggest to future human generations to have in mind, at the proper time, the potential of Earth-size artificial multiple structures in orbit around our star to produce distinguishable and intelligent transits." [emphasis not added]

Hmm. Looks like these shapes of artificial objects would produce an intelligent transit. Now, please email the author of this paper that before inferring the artificial nature of one of these objects, you have to know how the object was designed. Will you do that, please?

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:56 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 9:24 PM Genomicus has responded
 Message 279 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2012 10:33 PM Genomicus has responded

  
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