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Member (Idle past 4843 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What's the problem with teaching ID? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Of course you need to know how it was done.
It fun I imagine making stuff up, but until it is tested, examined, duplicated it is still just fantasy. AbE: And there is still nothing to teach or even research involving ID. Edited by jar, : see AbE:Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And if and when they do provide something to test it will be tested, just as it has been in each case.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Bring them on.
Give me a cite and we will look at it.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Thank you. Have you read that paper? It's available here
Now how is this different from anything you have proposed? Notice that he proposes several things, most importantly a series of tests to uses, methods and mechanics. So far that is ONE of the things seldom found in the ID marketing field, and every one that has been put forward has been shown to be false. The important issue is that YOU are avoiding dealing with ID. Look at that article again. First it deals with something humans do, build artificial orbiting bodies. Second, it deals with how such things could be identified. This is very comparable to what archeologists and paleontologists do when examine a site. If they find a flake of what looks like dirt, they compare it what we know we do and have done. If they find a rock with sharp edges they compare it to samples made by a knapper. We know how such objects could be made because we make such objects. Now let's turn to ID. What is the method that the Designer uses to preload the genome? What is the evidence that the genome is preloaded? Finally, even if they orbiting body was detected as described in the paper, intelligent origin would not be inferred until all other possible sources could be eliminated.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Not true.
You need to be able to duplicate the alien method.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
We build orbiting bodies even now and were doing so even before 2005.
The method they used is the methods we use.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Of course we can determine methods they could use.
The issue is method or model is presented for how the designer influenced evolution or that there is any preloaded genome. Why is it that those trying to market ID never seem to want to talk about ID, I wonder?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sure, if we can detect the object we can determine lots about it, what it's made of, it's mass, the surface.
We can compare that to what we build, just like the paleontologist examines pottery shards and stone tools. Why don't ID folk talk about how the designer influenced evolution, the method the designer used?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You brought up SETI.
I believe that is irrelevant and just another attractive rabbit hole so you don't have to do any work related to ID.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You are welcome to think anything you want.
The issue though is NOT SETI, it's ID.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Do we, or do we not need the lab where the orbiting body was constructed before reliably inferring design? We do not need the physical and specific lab. I already said that above. But we do need to be able to describe (even if we cannot currently duplicate) the way that the signal could be generated. The generic idea of "Intelligent Design" is not new. Almost every culture has some myths about how humans and the other animals were created by some other entity. The modern "Intelligent Design" though is just another attempt by the Creationists to get around the laws in the US. It is presenting the desired conclusion and then looking for evidence that supports the desired conclusion and excluding all evidence that refutes the desired conclusion. Let's look at design as we see it in human societies. As I pointed out back over a half decade ago in Message 8 of the thread INTELLIGENT DESIGN: An Engineer’s Approach, when we look at life from an engineering perspective there is no Intellegent Design.
quote: When this subject comes up we often get responses such as "What if SETI gets a signal that includes the first 500 Prime Numbers"; but the reality is that SETI has not received any such signal. If and when the ID proponents produce some evidence comparable to such a signal, then, and only then, should other groups bother to try and research, duplicate and confirm the findings. There is more though. One thing mentioned in this thread was "front loaded genomes". That wasn't really explained and no evidence was presented that "front loaded genomes" exist, but it really doesn't much matter. Even if there was a designer, other than as a historical footnote or for product liability would it matter. See Even if there was a Designer, does it matter? for a detailed discussion. For life as we find it today we have a pretty good handle on how evolution works; we have the model. It's nice to know who first designed tail fins or who first designed the bikini, but only as a bit of trivia. It would be nice to know who the designer was if we could initiate product liability suits. Looking at life today that alone could keep an infinite number of lawyers occupied and out of the way. But so far all that has come out of the ID marketers has been incredulity and down right silly assertions such as "complexity is a sign of design" when every designer knows that simplicity is a better indicator of design. Now if the ID marketers were willing to change the name to Inept Design, Incomprehensible Design, Incompetent Design, Inexpert Design or Inefficient Design then I think they would have a very high probability of success.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Actually, I don't think I'm saying anything that I have not said before.
As I have said, talking about SETI is simply an attempt to misdirect attention from the failings of ID. SETI, as pointed out in the Summary above is looking for a very specific signature, one that we know with a very high degree of confidence exists, namely a technological civilization that lives on the surface of a planet, uses the radio portion of the spectrum for communication and has capability to modify their environment using basic raw materials like metals and semiconductors. We have evidence that at least on such civilization exists. But that is not the case with ID. Where is the evidence of the existence of the designer comparable to what we have to create the radio signals SETI is listening for? In addition, SETI has so far found no evidence of any signal that matches the criteria. ID has no project comparable to SETI. They have no specific signal they are listening for. They have no program similar to SETI. Where is the ID equivalent to SETI.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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