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Author Topic:   is there any case for Intelligent design in man made products
Portillo
Member (Idle past 1508 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 61 of 72 (664544)
06-01-2012 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dr Adequate
05-28-2012 7:28 AM


Quite so. Welcome to evolution. Quite so. Welcome to evolution. Wipe your feet on the mat, they've got apologetics on them.

And what evidence is that. DDT resistance?

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.


Can thine heart endure, or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it, and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2012 7:28 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2012 10:15 PM Portillo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15469
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 62 of 72 (664561)
06-01-2012 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Portillo
06-01-2012 7:58 PM


And what evidence is that. DDT resistance?

What a strange non sequitur.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Portillo, posted 06-01-2012 7:58 PM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Portillo, posted 06-01-2012 10:34 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 1508 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 63 of 72 (664563)
06-01-2012 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
06-01-2012 10:15 PM


I mean whats the evidence of evolution that we see in the present.

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.


Can thine heart endure, or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it, and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2012 10:15 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2012 10:46 PM Portillo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15469
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 64 of 72 (664565)
06-01-2012 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Portillo
06-01-2012 10:34 PM


I mean whats the evidence of evolution that we see in the present.

Do you mean evidence of evolution occurring in the present, or evidence that it has occurred in the past that we see in the present?

---

May I take it that you concede my actual point, the one that I made?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Portillo, posted 06-01-2012 10:34 PM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Portillo, posted 06-01-2012 11:09 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 1508 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 65 of 72 (664566)
06-01-2012 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dr Adequate
06-01-2012 10:46 PM


Occuring in the present. Im not sure what point your referring to.

Can thine heart endure, or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it, and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2012 10:46 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2012 11:40 PM Portillo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15469
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 66 of 72 (664568)
06-01-2012 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Portillo
06-01-2012 11:09 PM


Occuring in the present.

In the present we observe small amounts of evolution commensurate with the small amount of time we've been looking. DDT resistance would be one example, yes.

Im not sure what point your referring to.

The one I made.

You claimed in general that coded information is the product of intelligence. But this is untrue in the particular case to which you wish to apply it, namely living organisms. We know that the genetic code in (for example) a daffodil was caused by two daffodils unintelligently having sex, and that unintelligent (and, of course, non-supernatural) processes of DNA copying and recombination and mutation and so forth were all that were required to produce the code. That's what we see.

So the specific case in which you wish to apply your supposedly general rule is a known counter-example to it! It's as though you were to say: "All machines work by electricity. Therefore, steam engines work by electricity", or: "All birds can fly. Therefore, ostriches can fly."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Portillo, posted 06-01-2012 11:09 PM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Portillo, posted 06-11-2012 9:39 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 1508 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 67 of 72 (665318)
06-11-2012 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dr Adequate
06-01-2012 11:40 PM


You claimed in general that coded information is the product of intelligence. But this is untrue in the particular case to which you wish to apply it, namely living organisms. We know that the genetic code in (for example) a daffodil was caused by two daffodils unintelligently having sex, and that unintelligent (and, of course, non-supernatural) processes of DNA copying and recombination and mutation and so forth were all that were required to produce the code. That's what we see.

Living organisms can reproduce and pass on genetic code, but natural selection doesnt explain the origin of code. The problem is what you need to get natural selection in the first place. Natural selection presupposes a self-replicating organism that can reproduce and create offspring. The organism is conducted by information in the DNA, which is what you are trying to explain the origin of. Biochemist Christian de Duve says, "Theories of prebiotic natural selection need information, which implies that they have to presuppose what is to be explained in the first place." Its like the guy who falls in a pit and says no problem, Ill go home and get a ladder. So he runs home, gets a ladder, comes back to the pit and climbs out.

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.


Can thine heart endure, or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it, and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-01-2012 11:40 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 06-11-2012 9:48 PM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-11-2012 11:22 PM Portillo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28427
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 68 of 72 (665319)
06-11-2012 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Portillo
06-11-2012 9:39 PM


Not quite.

Natural selection is simply the environment.

It really is that simple.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Portillo, posted 06-11-2012 9:39 PM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15469
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 69 of 72 (665322)
06-11-2012 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Portillo
06-11-2012 9:39 PM


Living organisms can reproduce and pass on genetic code, but natural selection doesnt explain the origin of code.

Which is why I didn't say it could, nor mentioned natural selection in my post.

My actual point, the one I made, remains what I actually said it was. When we look at living organisms, we find coded information without an intelligent cause. This means that you can't claim that coded information always has an intelligent cause, because this is known to be untrue. And if you wish to imagine that there was once an organism the information in which did have an intelligent cause, then the onus of proof is on you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Portillo, posted 06-11-2012 9:39 PM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Portillo, posted 06-11-2012 11:54 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Portillo
Member (Idle past 1508 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 70 of 72 (665326)
06-11-2012 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
06-11-2012 11:22 PM


How do you determine that a living organism is unintelligent?

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.


Can thine heart endure, or can thine hands be strong, in the days that I shall deal with thee? I the Lord have spoken it, and will do it. - Ezekial 22:14

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-11-2012 11:22 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-12-2012 12:49 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15469
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 71 of 72 (665327)
06-12-2012 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Portillo
06-11-2012 11:54 PM


How do you determine that a living organism is unintelligent?

Well, I gave the example of daffodils. They seem quite unintelligent. Could we not agree on that as common ground?

But even in the case of intelligent organisms, let us say Pierre and Marie Curie, the process that produced the information was itself unintelligent. He and she may have used their big Nobel-Prize-winning brains to decide to have a child, or at least to have hot scientist-on-scientist sex, but they did not intelligently design its genome, did they?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Portillo, posted 06-11-2012 11:54 PM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15469
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 72 of 72 (665328)
06-12-2012 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Portillo
05-28-2012 4:38 AM


Henry Quastler
The information scientist Henry Quastler said that, "The creation of new information is habitually associated with conscious activity."

Hmm ... let's look at some other things Quastler said. Here's a precis of his book The Emergence of Biological Organization (Yale University Press, 1964). Note the direct quote at the end.

This penetrating essay develops a scientific theory of biological organization starting with the initial creative accident which marked the origin of life. It is the first step in a theory that the author had intended to extend to other levels of organization. Henry Quastler was a research biologist whose application of mathematical ideas to biology was among his greatest contributions, and it was in the course of this work that he became involved in relating the concepts of information theory to problems of cell structure and of the creation and transmission of information in living systems. Here he postulates the construction of an automaton which could produce something akin to the noblest act of human consciousness, the creation of new information. He finds this eventuality not frightening but reassuring. It establishes the possibility of the creation of new information by an organism much simpler than man, even by a single cell, and even by a prebiological macromolecular system.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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