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Author Topic:   A test of your common sense
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 46 of 137 (665836)
06-18-2012 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Heathen
06-18-2012 11:30 AM


Maybe the folk I worked with just had higher standards.
And no, I do not deal with such things when I walk across a bridge.
Now admittedly, should the bridge fail, I would certainly introduce such a drawing into evidence during a product liability suit.
Further, what I actually said in Message 33 was:
jar writes:
Taz writes:
So, by looking at it, what does your feeling tell you about the point(s) of failure?
Absolutely nothing. The drawing is without meaning and contains far too many ambiguities to give even a hint about the failure mode.
The statement when read in full does not declare it nonsense and suggests that there are additional points that need clarification.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Heathen, posted 06-18-2012 11:30 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Heathen, posted 06-20-2012 2:29 AM jar has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 47 of 137 (665837)
06-18-2012 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ringo
06-18-2012 12:12 PM


I disagree with this. I've found that only people who aren't too knowledgable in certain field would try to look for more details when in fact all necessary details have been given. You can tell a lot from a person's questions.
Case in point. I just came back from the doctor's office. On saturday, I discovered something (medical condition of mine) and I needed to see my doctor as soon as possible. So, I called into his office and tried to get an appointment on the same day. The girl said all booked up for saturday. I then suggested "tomorrow" and she said "tomorrow is sunday". So, I said how about monday? She then said ok how about 10? Sounds good to me. Well, when I showed up this morning, I found out that she meant monday next week.
I could have sworn I didn't hear any mention of next week. But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. So, I ask her for "an earlier time". She looked at next monday's schedule and said there was no earlier time on monday. After rolling my eyes, I said when I said time I didn't just mean the time on the clock. It could also mean day. So, she looked again at the book and said there's no time opening for 10am on any day of this week. After rolling my eyes again, I explained to her that when I said time, it could mean time on the clock, day of the week, or combination of the 2, whatever that will let me see my doctor the earliest possible. Then she got it and put me down for 8:30 tomorrow.
What often happens in EvC debate is there are certain people who just plain don't understand the issue. They either honestly think they need more info or they try to mask their lack of understanding by declaring there's not enough info. Then there's also the type that won't understand the meaning behind a person's sentence. Hence my video clip of doctor strangelove of the very dense soldier.

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 Message 45 by ringo, posted 06-18-2012 12:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 06-18-2012 12:41 PM Taz has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 48 of 137 (665839)
06-18-2012 12:32 PM


There's nothing wrong with the assumed premise that common sense can't always be used to solve problems. It's obvious that some questions require extensive education/research before the questions can even be understood.
I think your example was too much of a technical question to work for you. Probabilities are a better way of messing with people's minds because they often seem simple, but sometimes aren't.
Several well known counter intuitive puzzles also demonstrate that 'common sense' can't be relied on. This is the Monty Hall puzzle
Suppose you're on a game show, and you're given the choice of three doors: Behind one door is a car; behind the others, goats. You pick a door, say No. 1 [but the door is not opened], and the host, who knows what's behind the doors, opens another door, say No. 3, which has a goat. He then says to you, "Do you want to pick door No. 2?" Is it to your advantage to switch your choice?
If you haven't seen the puzzle before, it seems simple enough but it makes most people's head hurt.
(Answer here, but do try to work it out first Monty Hall problem - Wikipedia)
Here's a less well known one:
Someone deals you a bridge hand (13 cards from a regular deck of 52 cards). You look at the hand and notice you have an Ace and say I have an Ace. What is the probability that you have another Ace?
The cards are collected and different hand is dealt. This time you look at your hand and state I have the Ace of Spades (which is true), what is the probability, this time, that you have another Ace?
Question: Is the probability in the second case the same as before, a lower probability, or a higher probability?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Drosophilla, posted 06-18-2012 12:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 49 of 137 (665840)
06-18-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taz
06-18-2012 12:23 PM


Taz writes:
I've found that only people who aren't too knowledgable in certain field would try to look for more details when in fact all necessary details have been given.
I didn't say anything about details.
I'm talking about your ability to convey the details that you did choose in a clear manner. In both words and pictures, you failed. As demonstrated, only another engineer can fathom what the hell you're talking about. Your method of communication is of no value in a debate with lay people.
Edited by ringo, : Splling.

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 Message 47 by Taz, posted 06-18-2012 12:23 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Taz, posted 06-18-2012 1:38 PM ringo has replied

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 50 of 137 (665841)
06-18-2012 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tangle
06-18-2012 12:32 PM


Hi Tangle
I knew the one about the choice of doors in the game show....but I don't know the one with the Bridge hand.
Logic suggests that it shouldn't make a difference, but knowing the topic of this thread and the game show example, I'm guessing it certainly does...though I can't for the life of me figure it out!
Here's a relatively simple puzzle that often seems to fox people (used to best effect with friends in the pub when they've had a few drinks and their thinking has slowed......)
Three men go to a restaurant for a meal. Each has a 10 note. They choose a meal that costs each of them exactly 10. The waiter collects the three 10 notes and heads off to the till where he remembers that it is a block-booking for which they receive a 5 discount.
Looking in the till he finds he only has 1 coins. He can't share 5 x 1 coins fairly amongst the three men. He scratches his head and thinks. He could keep the 5 discount - however he is (reasonably) honest and doesn't want to do that either.
So he has an idea....he'll give them 1 back each telling them he's overcharged them by a 1 each and he'll keep the other 2 as his tip,
So...this means the men haven't spent 10 each but only 9. Three times nine is 27 plus the 2 the waiter has kept makes 29.........hmmm...where is the 30th pound?
I've had some real fun in the pub with this one. Once I got a group of around a dozen scratching their heads with it......yet it's not difficult is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2012 12:32 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Percy, posted 06-18-2012 1:14 PM Drosophilla has replied
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 06-18-2012 2:09 PM Drosophilla has seen this message but not replied
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2012 2:13 PM Drosophilla has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 51 of 137 (665843)
06-18-2012 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Drosophilla
06-18-2012 12:56 PM


You're waiter puzzle reminds me of an old baseball tale, here's a version off the net:
There is an old baseball story that was, I think, first told about Frankie Frisch when he was player-manager of the St. Louis Cardinals in the 1930s:
The Cardinals' right fielder misplayed a routine fly ball into a double, and Frisch angrily took the guy out of the game, saying, "I'm going out there myself and show you how to play the outfield." A fly ball was hit to the same place and Frisch dropped it. He came back to the dugout, they say, and shouted to the right fielder, "You've got that position screwed up so bad that no one can play it!"
The explanation you provided screwed up people's understanding so bad they'll never understand it. You have to throw away that explanation and start from scratch. The gentlemen gave the waiter $30. $25 went to the restaurant, $2 went to the waiter, and $3 went back to the gentlemen.
Or you could explain it this way: The gentlemen paid 3 times $9 for a total of $27 dollars. $25 went to the restaurant and the waiter kept $2 for his tip.
Taz, please, enough already. Few would look at your problem and claim it has a common sense solution, but we're all intrigued, so what's the answer and why?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Drosophilla, posted 06-18-2012 12:56 PM Drosophilla has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 52 of 137 (665844)
06-18-2012 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Percy
06-18-2012 1:14 PM


Percy, I think that the confusion created by the telling is the point. If people can be so easily confused by a problem that is really very simple, how can we assume that ordinary intuitive thinking is more reliable than taking a more careful, reliable, analytical approach ?

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 53 of 137 (665845)
06-18-2012 1:20 PM


With a totally rigid beam, fixed at both ends, with no inherrant weaknesses, it breaks at either or both the fixed points of a & d.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 54 of 137 (665846)
06-18-2012 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
06-18-2012 12:41 PM


We have a long thing made from a hard material that is designed to only withstand 500 pounds. The long thing is held up at the ends by two 10-96's. 2 insanely overweight women, each weighing 500 pounds, decide to sit on two points L distance from the ends and the women are also L distance from each other.
Where on the long thing will the crack or breaking occur?
Edit.
Since some people are from parts of the world that use the metric system, they may get confused. So, instead of pound, just interject kilogram.
If you are from the middle east and can't understand what L distance is, pray to allah for the answer.
If you are homosexual and can't imagine anything female, just replace the 2 women with 2 very attractive and muscular guys.
Anyone else who might get confused?
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

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 Message 49 by ringo, posted 06-18-2012 12:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 55 of 137 (665847)
06-18-2012 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Percy
06-18-2012 1:14 PM


The explanation you provided screwed up people's understanding so bad they'll never understand it. You have to throw away that explanation and start from scratch. The gentlemen gave the waiter $30. $25 went to the restaurant, $2 went to the waiter, and $3 went back to the gentlemen.
Or you could explain it this way: The gentlemen paid 3 times $9 for a total of $27 dollars. $25 went to the restaurant and the waiter kept $2 for his tip.
Spot on Percy - as you say it is posing the wording with an incorrect assumption (3x9+2(the tip)=29 whereas it should be 3x9+3(the refund)=30). Glad you weren't present in the pub to suss it out - try it next time you are in the bar and the beer has been flowing - you'll be amazed how many you'll hook with it.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 56 of 137 (665849)
06-18-2012 2:07 PM


I heard a psychologist on the radio last month who's written a whole book around this question. (Cognitive bias actually, but you know what I mean).
A bat and ball cost a dollar and ten cents.
The bat costs a dollar more than the ball.
How much does the ball cost?
Wish I could remember his name because he had some interesting things to say.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Taz, posted 06-18-2012 2:12 PM Tangle has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 57 of 137 (665851)
06-18-2012 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Drosophilla
06-18-2012 12:56 PM


Drosophilla writes:
Three men go to a restaurant for a meal. Each has a 10 note. They choose a meal that costs each of them exactly 10. The waiter collects the three 10 notes and heads off to the till where he remembers that it is a block-booking for which they receive a 5 discount.
Looking in the till he finds he only has 1 coins. He can't share 5 x 1 coins fairly amongst the three men. He scratches his head and thinks. He could keep the 5 discount - however he is (reasonably) honest and doesn't want to do that either.
So he has an idea....he'll give them 1 back each telling them he's overcharged them by a 1 each and he'll keep the other 2 as his tip,
So...this means the men haven't spent 10 each but only 9. Three times nine is 27 plus the 2 the waiter has kept makes 29.........hmmm...where is the 30th pound?
I've had some real fun in the pub with this one. Once I got a group of around a dozen scratching their heads with it......yet it's not difficult is it?
Another way at looking at this problem is which side of the equation what belongs to. What you're doing is confusing left and right side of the equation.
I used to use this puzzle to confuse the hell out of people.

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 Message 50 by Drosophilla, posted 06-18-2012 12:56 PM Drosophilla has seen this message but not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 58 of 137 (665852)
06-18-2012 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tangle
06-18-2012 2:07 PM


Tangle writes:
A bat and ball cost a dollar and ten cents.
The bat costs a dollar more than the ball.
How much does the ball cost?
Unless I'm mistaken, a quick run through in my head says the ball costs 5 cents. But I have a feeling this is not the answer because there's a trick I'm not catching.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 06-18-2012 2:07 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 59 of 137 (665853)
06-18-2012 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Drosophilla
06-18-2012 12:56 PM


Yes, I've seen that one...even knowing the trick, I still have to puzzle over it for a minute or two.
Here's the answer to the cards:
The surprising answer is that, if you call I have the Ace of Spades, it is more likely that you have another Ace than if you just state I have an Ace!
If you state you have the Ace of Spades there is an 11686 / 20825 chance you have (at least) another Ace, which is 56.12%. If you state you have An Ace then the chance you have (at least) another Ace is 5359 / 14498 (which is 36.27%). It’s over 50% less likely!
How come? Well, this puzzle is more about a confidence problem than a probability problem. It’s about the disclosure of information.
Clear? I'm not.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 137 (665854)
06-18-2012 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Taz
06-18-2012 1:38 PM


Taz writes:
Where on the long thing will the crack or breaking occur?
As I said earlier, common-sensibly I would expect it to break where the ladies are sitting.
Anecdotally, the exact same thing did happen to me once. The plank broke halfway between us, at the knot. Lackng a knot, I'll stick to my first answer.
Edited by ringo, : Splling - kyboard is skpping chracters.

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