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Author Topic:   Agent Orange Corn
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 21 of 47 (666418)
06-26-2012 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by herebedragons
06-26-2012 10:06 PM


Ok, first of all I am not completely against GMOs. But I do fear the full speed ahead attitude. I fear we don’t know enough about the consequences.
Well, then it's really going to freak you out to learn that the genetics of even our non-GMO crops are just changing, willy-nilly, all the time in ways we can't even predict or keep track of! Random genetic mutations, just happening all the time, and doing god-only-knows-what.
And not just our crops, but our livestock as well! House pets, even! Even our own bodies are undergoing this process of dangerous, unpredictable genetic self-manipulation!
If there’s one thing we have learned about our environment since Silent Spring it is how interactive and connected our world is.
Well, sure. But our views on how to conserve and protect the natural environment can't be based on ideas that genomes should never change, because the genes of all species are in constant change. If they change via human manipulation or random chance, I don't see the difference, and GMO opponents have done nothing to establish that there is one. Their view of species genomics seems to be predicated on ideas of species essentialism that were discredited in the 19th century.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by herebedragons, posted 06-26-2012 10:06 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by herebedragons, posted 06-27-2012 8:10 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 47 (666443)
06-27-2012 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by herebedragons
06-27-2012 8:10 AM


You don't really see random mutations that have occurred over millions of years and have been subject to natural selection as the same thing as human manipulation of genomes do you?
I see it as completely identical. Any change you could cause by genetic manipulation could, in principle, be the result (however unlikely) of random mutation. And if it were, there would simply be no question at all about exploiting that new trait in agriculture. So why should GM be subject to such an extremely different level of scrutiny, when the results are the same?
That is certainly not my view!
No, and I didn't mean to imply that it was. My apologies for the confusion - more than anything I was agreeing with you, that the position of GMO opponents that it's inherently wrong to "monkey" with the genome is blinkered, and reflects an ignorance that the genomes of all species are inherently "self-monkeying."
In fact, with regard to these Roundup resistant weeds, I questioned whether we should be getting into an arms race with nature.
We're always in an arms race with nature - or, better perhaps, a Red Queen's Race. (You know, where one must run as fast as they possibly can merely to stand still.) The field environment is, by definition, one which is highly favorable to the cultivation of plants, and many plants try to take advantage. We call them "weeds" when they're not what we wish to have growing in our fields. Any attempt to keep weeds out is going to promote adaptation to weed control - in Mexico, where maize is still largely hand-cultivated and hand-weeded, teosinte has adapted to the practice by growing as tall as, and naturally in rows like, the corn which it is a weed of.
Any effort to control pests is going to result in pests adapting to the control. Modern agronomists try to manage the evolution of resistance as much as possible, but frequently that requires farmers to farm in ways that depress their yields and therefore their profit. For instance, the planting of "refuge crop", non-resistance-trait crop that allows insect pests to take refuge and reduces the selection pressure that promotes insect resistance to the trait. And what many are not aware of is that the restrictive licensing regimes that people often criticize agrobusinesses like Monsanto for are a very important tool in making sure farmers don't screw the pooch for everybody by assuming that their neighbor will plant refuge, so they don't have to. It's a collective action problem, and restrictive licensing is one of the only tools Monsanto and other seed breeders have to make sure that farmers are doing their part to manage pest resistances.
If you know of evidence that specific GMOs have been fully and thoroughly tested and proved to be safe for human and animal consumption, then please present it.
Well, they've been in the food stream for 20 years. They've been subject to countless feeding studies for twice as long with no discernable difference from conventional hybrids. And again, there's no proposed mechanism by which they cause harm. The claims of "harm" are all based on the precautionary principle - "we don't know that they don't cause harm" - but we have as much evidence of their safety as we do for anything else in the food stream Generally Regarded as Safe (GRAS), so I see no reason to conclude that they're not GRAS.
In fact, the burden of proof should be on the genetic engineers to prove their products are safe, not on the opponents to prove there is a problem.
At this point, genetic engineers have met the burden of proof to have the current marketed GMO technologies be GRAS. Maybe 30 years ago, that was not the case, but it is now. It was the case before GMO products came to market, and that to me seems proper. At this point, I think the burden of evidence lies with those who want to overturn their GRAS status, and I've not seen anything that even moves the needle in that direction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by herebedragons, posted 06-27-2012 8:10 AM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Taq, posted 06-27-2012 12:49 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 35 of 47 (666446)
06-27-2012 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by herebedragons
06-27-2012 8:51 AM


Re: The Alternatives
They are genetically modifying these crops SO they can shower them with pesticides.
No, look, that's exactly the reverse. Pesticides are one of the farmer's most expensive inputs, so why would farmers pay a premium for GMO seeds that they then have to pay more in pesticides to cultivate? If you think about it for a second - and remember that farmers farm to make money - you'll see that makes no sense.
GMO technologies are meant to reduce pesticide use. Even the pesticide resistance traits are meant for that, because they allow you you knock out all weeds during their vulnerable emergence period in one fell swoop, instead of having to keep applying throughout the season because you can only use a little bit at a time without burning down your crop.
Right now, the GMO technology everybody is concerned about is the 15-year-old YieldGuard trait, which expresses a protein from Bacillus thuringiensis that is toxic to caterpillars and beetle larvae. It's meant to be expressed mostly in root tissue, because feeding by soil-dwelling larvae is a major problem in pest control - how do you spray the roots of a plant?
Maybe we should all go back to growing our own food for our own families in our own backyards ... Naw.
Well, shit, buddy, you live in Michigan. For that matter, I'm from Minnesota. How do you expect it to work where either of us is able to grow 6-9 months' worth of food over the summer and spring in a 20 by 20 plot? Hell, how do you expect that to work if you rent an apartment with no backyard at all?
Do you know what's a lot worse for the environment than having high-density cities fed by specialized industrial agriculture? The kind of suburban living where people have backyards and gardens. I'm not saying you're doing this, but I urge you caution - don't mistake picturesque, bucolic gardens for an ethos of environmentalism. There are substantial negative externalities associated with the kind of lifestyle that enables "growing food for your own family in your backyard." And none of that even begins to reckon with the likelihood of a localized crop failure causing a famine - something that doesn't really happen in places where you can get a tomato from Chile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by herebedragons, posted 06-27-2012 8:51 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-27-2012 2:37 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 46 by herebedragons, posted 06-30-2012 11:35 PM crashfrog has seen this message but not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 39 of 47 (666471)
06-27-2012 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
06-27-2012 2:52 PM


Re: The Alternatives
Crash was saying that they're not going to use any pesticides at all.
Please allow me to correct your misunderstanding (see, this is what it looks like): I did not at any point say that they're "not going to use any pesticides at all." If you got that impression then I apologize for not being clear.
The point of most of these GMO traits is either to reduce pesticide use, or introduce pest resistance in areas where pesticides can't really be applied, like the root system. Not to completely eliminate pesticide use.
The opposite of using more is using less, not using none.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-27-2012 2:52 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-27-2012 3:02 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 43 of 47 (666475)
06-27-2012 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by New Cat's Eye
06-27-2012 3:02 PM


Re: The Alternatives
The opposite of showing them with pesticides is not showering them with pesticides at all.
The opposite of using a lot is using a little, and using only a little is not "a shower."
I didn't say "no pesticides at all" at any point. Again, sorry you misunderstood, but I've made myself clear twice, now. Could you explain your confusion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-27-2012 3:02 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
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