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Member (Idle past 3597 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What if Satan reformed? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Christian7 Member (Idle past 248 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
Ah... so I'm "satan inspired". That won't come as a surprize to some, but I'm a bit disappointed: since you have such a high regard for "Satan", I thought you might be a Satanist. I don't think we have one of those around here. But on to the topic. The OP asks: If Satan reformed, 1. Would God forgive?2. Would evil disappear? 3. How would you discern spirits if they all said the same thing? 4. How would you get the memo? Any thoughts? This is like asking what five divided by zero is. The answer is undefined because it doesn't make any sense. It's not even an issue. This is why the question doesn't make sense: 1. Satan won't reform.2. Jesus didn't die for satan. 3. Angels don't have free will anymore (as far as good and evil goes) because they have already made their choice.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iBibleNano writes: Satan won't reform. I'm still curious as to how you know so much about Satan's thought processes.
The answer is undefined because it doesn't make any sense. It's not even an issue. Clearly it is an issue because there's a thread about it and a hundred and thirty-odd posts by people who think it is an issue. If it isn't an issue to you, don't participate in the thread. And it's a hypothetical question. It doesn't have to "make sense". Use your imagination. What if? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Tusko Member (Idle past 100 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: |
Jaderis writes: Archer Opterix writes: In Paradise Lost Milton's Satan famously says that it is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven. I don't recall the exact context. Had Milton's God just given him a chance to enter heaven? That's an interesting question and one I am not prepared to answer since I last read Paradise Lost about 12 years ago. Does anyone else know the context? If I recall, Satan is merely referring to his old job as God's flunky, and not suggesting that God offered him anything after his fall.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3597 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Welcome to EvC, iBibleNano.
1. Satan won't reform. How do you know the limits on a supernatural being's choices?
2. Jesus didn't die for satan. How do you know the limits of God's mercy?
3. Angels don't have free will anymore (as far as good and evil goes) because they have already made their choice. How do you know the limits on a supernatural being's choices? Bottom line: How do you know? ___ Archer All species are transitional.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Archer writes: Well, if Satan was putting Holy thoughts in peoples heads, he still would be competing with the Boss. Imagine that Satan has a change of heart and becomes the most holy, angelic, benevolent spirit there is. Instead of putting evil thoughts into people's heads, he starts putting holy thoughts into them. What now? Either that or he would be part of the Angels Local #777. "All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis * * * * * * * * * * “The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson
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pelican Member (Idle past 4985 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
God and Satan are just the polarities within which to choose how to live our lives. We have thoughts from both extremities and without one, the other could not exist. It would completely change life for humanity.
The power of God and Satan is divided up by us, not by them. I hope Satan never goes away but that we make more informed decisions based on greater understanding. Satan is not to be hated. Satan is to be accepted, heard and seen by all. Why be afraid when all he does is make suggestions to each of us? It's more reasonable to be afraid of a god who has such high expectations of us, OR have I gotten them mixed up?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Have you ever heard of the belief known as Dualism? The Catholic Encyclopedia describes the definitions which distinguish dualism from Christianity.
Catholic Encyclopedia writes:
Then, when the Christian philosophies were established, we had:
Dualism(From Latin duo, two)--First, the name has been used to denote the religious or theological system which would explain the universe as the outcome of two eternally opposed and coexisting principles, conceived as good and evil, light and darkness, or some other form of conflicting powers. We find this theory widely prevalent in the East, and especially in Persia, for several centuries before the Christian Era. Catholic Encyclopedia writes: Christianity rejected all forms of a dual origin of the world which erected matter, or evil, or any other principle into a second eternal being coexistent with God, and it taught the monistic origin of the universe from one, infinite, self-existing spiritual Being who freely created all things. Personally,while I see a world of good and evil, I personally ascribe to the belief that God is sovereign and is good. Thus, Good trumps Evil. (In my Belief) "All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis * * * * * * * * * * “The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson
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pelican Member (Idle past 4985 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Personally,while I see a world of good and evil, I personally ascribe to the belief that God is sovereign and is good. Thus, Good trumps Evil. (In my Belief) You certainly know your bible(s). I am still confused though. If you ascribe good to God, who do you ascribe evil to?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Ringo writes: Thus, it is not a matter of asking "what if Satan reformed"....as it is asking whether we ourselves will reform and quit trying to figure the universe out for ourselves while paying no homage to a Supreme Being. Even if "a satan" doesn't exist, wouldn't the characteristics still exist? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Ringo,to i-Biblenano writes: We really dont know for sure, but base much of our speculation on scripture. I'm still curious as to how you know so much about Satan's thought processes. Scripture refers to Satan as "the lawless one" and says that there is no truth in him.
Ringo writes: Use your imagination. What if? And thats what I like about philosophy and speculation....it is creative or imaginative thinking unhindered by dogmatic theology. I dont think that humans are capable of being as good as Jesus, since Jesus knew no sin, whereas we do. I also dont think that we can be as bad as satan, since we are capable of telling the truth.
Ringo writes: On a more serious note, the specific questions asked in the OP are: Would God forgive?Would evil disappear? How would you discern spirits if they all said the same thing? How would you get the memo? God may forgive satan, but i dont see satan changing his stripes. If he did, there is hope for all of us, but without Gods help. Evil would disappear, IMHO Discernment comes through discipline, prayer, and fasting. I trust that God would find a way for the memo to be delivered. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
"No truth in him" suggests that he doesn't tell the truth, not that he's incapable. The stereotypical Satan chooses to lie for his own purposes, just iike we do.
I also dont think that we can be as bad as satan, since we are capable of telling the truth. Pat writes:
If the prison doors were opened and the captives set free, it would be hard to sell Get-out-of-jail-free cards, wouldnt it? Satan seems to be a pretty useful asset for organized religion. God may forgive satan, but i dont see satan changing his stripes. If he did, there is hope for all of us, but without Gods help. From God's viewpoint, I think Satan would be more useful as the ultimate reformed sinner. Edited by ringo, : Splling.
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frako Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
From God's viewpoint, I think Satan would be more useful as the ultimate reformed sinner. Yea but wouldn't it f$%k up his grand master plan of the battle at Armageddon and the whole coming of the kingdom of god and imprisonment of Satan. Do you know how many innocent babies died when i was writing this message so gods mestirius ways and his grandmaster plan would work?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Even if He accepts Satans apology, He still has to deal with all of the unbelievers who assume they need no God and who think that human intellect is destined to be the penultimate object of worship.
Then again, maybe God will simply zap Himself out of existence and let us try and run the universe from our dust speck.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1503 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined:
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Lucifer being a angel exist in a state of full knowledge. Time as we know it is linear, but for God and Angels it is simply a state of being.
Lucifer being one of the Arch Angels was condemned when his choice to rebel against God the Father was made. Hell according to some Catholic teachings is a state of being apart from God. So in that sense one can be in Hell as long as one is separated from God. It is one goal of all Christians to be in God's grace, to experience the beatific vision. Or as other religions call it obtain enlightenment.This is of course dogma and alternate viewpoints of Catholic teachings. "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
(I think you mean "ultimate" there. "Penultimate" means "second last".) Even if He accepts Satans apology, He still has to deal with all of the unbelievers who assume they need no God and who think that human intellect is destined to be the penultimate object of worship. Why would God "have" to deal with people who tried to go without Him?
Phat writes:
If He did that, how would you know?
Then again, maybe God will simply zap Himself out of existence and let us try and run the universe from our dust speck.
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