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Author Topic:   Evolution versus Creationism is a 'Red Herring' argument
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 16 of 136 (665239)
06-10-2012 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulGL
05-27-2012 2:11 PM


In the OP you argue that evolution is based on Uniformitarianism and that Uniformitarianism is invalid. So why would it be improper to reject evolution on that basis.
Second you argue that relaxing the literal 24-hour days makes the Genesis account compatible with evolution. But even if the 6 days were different from 24-hour days, there is still the problem that the order of creation in Genesis is not compatible with the scientific view.
Perhaps you are the one erroneously jumping to a conclusion that religious people and scientists are idiots.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by PaulGL, posted 05-27-2012 2:11 PM PaulGL has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 23 of 136 (665294)
06-11-2012 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by PaulGL
06-11-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Sorry, no spare time now. Beg your forgiveness
Yet craters (with little or no detectable erosion) were found that had to have been formed within recent, perhaps historical times.
A crater on Venus, or any other planet, may have been formed by any number of known and observed mechanisms including impact by a meteor. We also believe that there are no plate tectonics or Venus. Explain how some random feature found on Venus, that may or may not be formed by a catastrophic event, rules out whatever you mean by uniformitarianism as an explanation for other features, either on Venus or on earth.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by PaulGL, posted 06-11-2012 4:13 PM PaulGL has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 136 (665416)
06-13-2012 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by PaulK
06-12-2012 1:52 AM


Re: Sorry, no spare time now. Beg your forgiveness
However, he would still have the massive problem that he still does't have an argument that is remotely valid and still wouldn't even if he DID come up with an example of catastrophic processes on Earth. It is not enough to argue that evolution took ideas from uniformitarianism and uniformitarianism is false.
Did even the old discarded versions of uniformitarianism ever imply that no features on earth were formed during catastrophic events such as volcano eruptions and meteor impacts?
Secondly, what story is PaulGL using to explain Venus craters?
Thirdly, is this thread just a plug for a book?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by PaulK, posted 06-12-2012 1:52 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 06-13-2012 11:26 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 64 by PaulGL, posted 07-06-2012 11:55 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 136 (665439)
06-13-2012 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by PaulK
06-13-2012 11:26 AM


Re: Sorry, no spare time now. Beg your forgiveness
Since the book only came up when Percy mentioned it, I don't think so. It might have turned into one, but I doubt even that. A plug for the ideas in the book perhaps.
Well, the OP did reference some chapter of some book that I don't see on my shelf. I've been trying to determine if there is some reason to read the book.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by PaulK, posted 06-13-2012 11:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 06-13-2012 2:46 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 136 (667583)
07-09-2012 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by PaulGL
07-06-2012 11:55 PM


re: uniformitarinism
...Exclusion of the possibility of such interaction involving the terrestrial, inner planets; and certainly precluding events of such magnitude possibly occurring within recent (geologically) and even historical time frames.
Don't drink and post.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by PaulGL, posted 07-06-2012 11:55 PM PaulGL has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by PaulGL, posted 07-10-2012 2:27 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 136 (667959)
07-14-2012 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by PaulGL
07-07-2012 12:00 AM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
So, your point is that if horses were the first animal to achieve a free will, then cloning would not be necessary in their case. Remark about spirit is juvenile.
That's quite obviously not the point.
The point of Coragyps argument is that your assumption that the first Homo with 23 pairs of chromosomes would not be able to find a mate has not been established. You cannot establish that assumption without producing his 22 paired ancestor or peers.
Your failing is that you believe your assumption is proven by the fact that modern man cannot mate with chimpanzees.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by PaulGL, posted 07-07-2012 12:00 AM PaulGL has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by PaulGL, posted 07-15-2012 6:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 136 (668009)
07-15-2012 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by PaulGL
07-15-2012 6:50 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
2. In order for the first such entity reaching such a threshold level of intelligence to be able to produce 100% of their offspring with the same level, they must have a mate with the identical genetic characteristic.
This is the point at which your line of reasoning is being challenged. And you should not need me to point that out. But instead you went on about horses.
5. If the Bible is true, then there should be a correlation to this in its record.
Do you really think an argument that Genesis must not only be literally correct, but also complete is a viable argument? Nobody thinks that every thing that happened to mankind is told in the Bible.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by PaulGL, posted 07-15-2012 6:50 PM PaulGL has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by PaulGL, posted 07-16-2012 11:35 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 136 (668030)
07-16-2012 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulGL
07-16-2012 11:28 AM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Would it not be highly desirable that all of your children be able to speak with you.
Yes, that would have been great. But such a desirable event is not absolutely required. In fact, given that evolution does not have a desired outcome, that something would be "highly desirable" in order to accomplish a desired outcome is irrelevant.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulGL, posted 07-16-2012 11:28 AM PaulGL has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by PaulGL, posted 07-16-2012 6:39 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 136 (668031)
07-16-2012 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulGL
07-16-2012 11:28 AM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
I am going to defer to PaulK and Coragyps who have handled this question in the same way I would have.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulGL, posted 07-16-2012 11:28 AM PaulGL has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 136 (668033)
07-16-2012 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by PaulGL
07-16-2012 11:35 AM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Obviously, parts of the Bible are literal, and parts are allegorical.
If we follow this suggestion, then there is no reason why the first living ancestor to have 23 pairs of chromosomes needed to be Adam or even anything we would call homo sapiens.
You've picked one way to interpret the allegory, namely that Eve was cloned from Adam; surely there are countless others allegorical interpretations that others could generate.
And that's assuming that the story in Genesis bears any relation whatsoever to how the humans evolved that any of us would recognize.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by PaulGL, posted 07-16-2012 11:35 AM PaulGL has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 136 (668399)
07-20-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulGL
07-16-2012 6:39 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Okay, never mind defining desirability in the limited way of personal preference. Rather, let it be defined as a trait which would increase the capacity of the species to survive.
Do you understand the objection that has been raised? Just because you find some mechanism or process to be efficient, desireable, or advantageous in propagating evolved traits does not mean that the mechanism or process is even possible, let alone that it actually occurred. It's not that no one understands your argument. Your argument simply is not persuasive.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulGL, posted 07-16-2012 6:39 PM PaulGL has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 136 (668867)
07-25-2012 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by PaulGL
07-23-2012 9:11 PM


Re: necessity for cloning to ensure 100% transmission of an acquired genetic trait
Okay: X trait genetically appears in species Y, by whatever process (mutation, natural selection, environmental change- whatever. In order for this acquired trait to be inherited by 100% of X's offspring, his mate must have the identical chromosomal makeup that X has. But this is a first, unique trait to X's species. Only way for a mate to X to likewise have the identical chromosomal makeup is cloning
There is no need for the trait to show up in 100 percent of the offspring. You require this only because you favor some allegory based on your interpretation of Genesis.
But evolution does not require all offspring to have trait X. If trait X is advantageous, offspring having the trait will have an advantage that leads to the trait propagating.
That is the objection that has been raised several times. I don't see any attempt on your part to address it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by PaulGL, posted 07-23-2012 9:11 PM PaulGL has not replied

  
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