Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8871 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-14-2018 12:08 AM
194 online now:
PaulK, xongsmith (2 members, 192 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: paradigm of types
Post Volume:
Total: 841,909 Year: 16,732/29,783 Month: 720/1,956 Week: 223/331 Day: 1/98 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234
5
6Next
Author Topic:   Higgs Boson
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


(1)
Message 61 of 81 (668301)
07-19-2012 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by foreveryoung
07-19-2012 12:59 PM


Re: Maybe you're wrong! x10
They pick up a pulse in an electromagnetic wave. The spin comes from what phase the wave is in.

Can you provide some sort of documentation to support this? A bald face assertion is not sufficient.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by foreveryoung, posted 07-19-2012 12:59 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2093 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 62 of 81 (668304)
07-19-2012 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by foreveryoung
07-19-2012 12:59 PM


Re: Maybe you're wrong! x10
They pick up a pulse in an electromagnetic wave. The spin comes from what phase the wave is in.

Can you describe this pulse? Is it a change in frequency or amplitude? What about polarization, horizontal or vertical or maybe circular? A little more explanation of phase would also be helpful.

Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
― Edward R. Murrow

"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by foreveryoung, posted 07-19-2012 12:59 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1120
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 63 of 81 (668308)
07-19-2012 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by foreveryoung
07-19-2012 12:59 PM


Re: Maybe you're wrong! x10
foreveryoung writes:

They pick up a pulse in an electromagnetic wave. The spin comes from what phase the wave is in.


There are a few things wrong with this, let's take the most glaring problem first.

The spin, which is basically just angular momentum always comes in multiples of . If light was just a wave, then couldn't the strength of the wave be adjusted continuously to get any amount of angular momentum you wanted. Why is it always with a whole number?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by foreveryoung, posted 07-19-2012 12:59 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16052
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 64 of 81 (668323)
07-19-2012 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by foreveryoung
07-19-2012 12:57 PM


Re: Rumours
What are you talking about?

The data you have which supports your assertions. What, it doesn't exist?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by foreveryoung, posted 07-19-2012 12:57 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
ooh-child
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: 04-10-2009
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 65 of 81 (669690)
08-01-2012 2:32 PM


Even more certain?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19076355

According to this BBC article: Now one Higgs-hunting team at the Large Hadron Collider report a "5.9 sigma" levels of certainty it exists.

IOW, it's now a one-in-300 million chance that the results are just statistical flukes.

I sure wish forever....err.......voltaire30 would come back and continue w/ his questions. I really thought you were getting somewhere, kiddo.


  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1120
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 66 of 81 (672291)
09-06-2012 5:28 AM


Update.
The data has been checked more extensively and in addition to the 5.9 sigma result mentioned above, it seems the new boson has the same decay properties as those predicted for the Higgs. What remains is to measure those decay properties more exactly, since currently the boson could still be some other particle. Also, more importantly, we need to measure the parity of the new boson.

Parity only comes in two values (-,+) which describes how the field related to the particle behaves if you look at it in a mirror. Although the profile of the field will be inverted, like any everyday object, its also possible that its values at each point in space could change sign, that is flip from positive to negative values and vice-versa. + being that they don't change sign, - being that they do. The Higgs field has parity +, the effects of which will show up in the scattering of the Higgs boson off other particles.


Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by NoNukes, posted 03-18-2013 1:36 PM Son Goku has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 81 (693589)
03-18-2013 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Son Goku
09-06-2012 5:28 AM


Re: Update II
"New results indicate that particle discovered at CERN is a Higgs boson"

http://press.web.cern.ch/...icle-discovered-cern-higgs-boson

It looks as though some of the verifying that Son Goku posted about has been completed.

quote:
Having analysed two and a half times more data than was available for the discovery announcement in July, they find that the new particle is looking more and more like a Higgs boson, the particle linked to the mechanism that gives mass to elementary particles. It remains an open question, however, whether this is the Higgs boson of the Standard Model of particle physics, or possibly the lightest of several bosons predicted in some theories that go beyond the Standard Model. Finding the answer to this question will take time.

and that there is still more of that verification left to do...

quote:
To determine if this is the Standard Model Higgs boson, the collaborations have, for example, to measure precisely the rate at which the boson decays into other particles and compare the results to the predictions. The detection of the boson is a very rare event - it takes around 1 trillion (1012) proton-proton collisions for each observed event. To characterize all of the decay modes will require much more data from the LHC.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Son Goku, posted 09-06-2012 5:28 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1768 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 68 of 81 (693607)
03-18-2013 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by vimesey
07-19-2012 5:53 AM


Re: Rumours

The only way you will upset the apple cart of established physics, is by setting out, with cogent mathematics, a comprehensive competing theory, which allows you to make mathematically based predictions, which can in turn be tested and verified in experiments.

That is true in the discipline of Modern Science.

Science will not accept a theory otherwise.
In fact, that is the definition of a theory.

What I find so interesting about the verification of the Higgs particle is that it fills in the organization of the Elemental Particles in the same analogous way that Chemists organized the Atomic particles into the twelve Chemical Groups.

The Group Theory that predicts a specific pattern to the way our mind organizes and analyzes Reality seems confirmed in this research that has slowly found the exact number and groupings of elemental particles as predicted by the hypothesis I set down years ago:

In the very center of the Graphic Representation of the Elemental Particles that were predicted to exist, that white triangle contains the shape which was empty and awaiting this discovery.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by vimesey, posted 07-19-2012 5:53 AM vimesey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Eli, posted 03-18-2013 8:01 PM kofh2u has responded

    
Eli
Member (Idle past 1440 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 69 of 81 (693618)
03-18-2013 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by kofh2u
03-18-2013 5:47 PM


Re: Rumours
There are 18 chemical groups. Please take your numerology and pet theories somewhere that might be considered relevant. Whatever you predicted has nothing to do with the subject or with what the actual organization of atomic particles is.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by kofh2u, posted 03-18-2013 5:47 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by kofh2u, posted 03-22-2013 10:45 AM Eli has acknowledged this reply

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1768 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 70 of 81 (693627)
03-19-2013 12:27 AM


..."we're not finished yet"....
Beyond the Standard Model

The Higgs was a next to step, since the GUT still predict the Quark-Lepton, or X-partical,....
... and the graviton has not be discovered:

Grand unification theories

A grand unified theory predicts additional gauge bosons named X and Y bosons. The hypothetical X and Y bosons direct interactions between quarks and leptons, hence violating conservation of baryon number and causing proton decay. Such bosons would be even more massive than W and Z bosons due to symmetry breaking.

Gravitons
The fourth fundamental interaction, gravity, may also be carried by a boson, called the graviton. In the absence of experimental evidence and a mathematically coherent theory of quantum gravity, it is unknown whether this would be a gauge boson or not.


Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Eli, posted 03-19-2013 1:41 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

    
Eli
Member (Idle past 1440 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


(1)
Message 71 of 81 (693642)
03-19-2013 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by kofh2u
03-19-2013 12:27 AM


Re: ..."we're not finished yet"....
There are 24 fermions, not 12.

There are 5 Bosons in GUT, not 7.

You can copy and paste a wiki, but that doesn't mean you understand what the article says. Clearly your picture has nothing to do with what you copied, and as far as organizing information, its nearly indecipherable.

Classifications should be nested in categorical heirarchy, not some cookie cutter pattern that you basically fill in with whatever terms you think apply regardless if they belong or their actual relationship.

Your chart is crap.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 12:27 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 81 (693665)
03-19-2013 10:45 AM


I messed up...
I apologize for my part in turning an informative thread into a steaming pile that I wouldn't invite anyone to read.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by kofh2u, posted 03-22-2013 10:32 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1768 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 73 of 81 (694129)
03-22-2013 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by NoNukes
03-19-2013 10:45 AM


Re: I messed up...

I apologize...

Fine,...

But don't stop reading now that we are back of track.
The Higgs connects this "God particle" with what may well be the Urim and Thummim.

The U&T allowed the high priest to discern the will of that same God which interacts with mankind, wherein using his own High Priest, Truth, all is revealed by casting this fixed pattern, as if a vail before the Temple, over everything we come to fully understand.

Exodus 26:33
And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by NoNukes, posted 03-19-2013 10:45 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1768 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 74 of 81 (694134)
03-22-2013 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Eli
03-18-2013 8:01 PM


...latest break thru in public education...

There are 18 chemical groups.

Yes, that is almost right if you add the 8B trinity of elements....

It is easy to remember things when we use the same procerss of Ordering them, like this opattern or Graphic Organizer demonstrates.
When we feed "order in," students can learn to get "order out."

The organization of everything we try to understand is really the observable efect of the way our whole Central nervous System has evolved, into these same number sets.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Eli, posted 03-18-2013 8:01 PM Eli has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by AdminNosy, posted 03-22-2013 10:47 AM kofh2u has responded

    
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


(10)
Message 75 of 81 (694135)
03-22-2013 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by kofh2u
03-22-2013 10:45 AM


Nonsense
Please stay out of this thread. Others wish to discuss the CERN work on this not numerological nonsense that you like to make up.

Thank you.

More posting here will give you a 3 day suspension.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by kofh2u, posted 03-22-2013 10:45 AM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by kofh2u, posted 03-22-2013 10:22 PM AdminNosy has not yet responded

  
Prev1234
5
6Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018