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Author Topic:   Original Sin - Scripture and Reason
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 203 (668541)
07-22-2012 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Modulous
07-22-2012 5:13 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
Lots of words but no content I could find.
Sorry but the only motive was that the carts were there and I could push them back.
It does not help the community, does not enhance my status (even if I cared about that), would not encourage anyone else to push carts back and I don't care if they do anyway, ...
A real human does what they are capable of doing simply because it is the right thing to do.
It really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:13 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:31 PM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 203 (668542)
07-22-2012 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Modulous
07-22-2012 5:13 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
There is absolutely no need for you to be conscious of this sort of analysis, so the fact that you don't remember consciously doing anything like this is not really the point. Your brain is making all sorts of decisions without making them conscious.
How exactly is your theory tested?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:13 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:40 PM Jon has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 63 of 203 (668543)
07-22-2012 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
07-22-2012 5:22 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
A real human does what they are capable of doing simply because it is the right thing to do.
Why is it 'the right thing to do?'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 07-22-2012 5:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 07-22-2012 5:34 PM Modulous has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 203 (668544)
07-22-2012 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Modulous
07-22-2012 5:31 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
Because it is something I can do that hurts no one and may help many.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:31 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:43 PM jar has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 65 of 203 (668545)
07-22-2012 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Jon
07-22-2012 5:26 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
How exactly is your theory tested?
It's not my theory. It belongs to various ethologists. I believe various psychological tests have been performed that confirm we are biased towards those that are related to us, even if we are not consciously aware of so being at the time of the test. Further tests show that humans are capable of mutualism and understanding reciprocal altruism. I believe it has been shown we are a social primate, with certain evolved traits - including behavioural ones. I mean, what aspect of the concept do you want to see testing for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Jon, posted 07-22-2012 5:26 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Jon, posted 07-22-2012 6:14 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 66 of 203 (668546)
07-22-2012 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
07-22-2012 5:34 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
Because it is something I can do that hurts no one and may help many.
Right - it may help others. Why do you want to help others?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 07-22-2012 5:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 07-22-2012 5:46 PM Modulous has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 67 of 203 (668548)
07-22-2012 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Modulous
07-22-2012 5:13 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
Hi Modulous,
I can follow the analysis that any action, however altruisitc and selfless it can seem, can be viewed as a selfish action, given a certain perspective, and certain conditions (very often, one of the conditions is that the action be acknowledged or observed, of course).
This analysis is ultimately quite a cold and destructive way of viewing things, though, isn't it ? It reduces motives to robotic analyses of effort and reward - it suggests that our free will is an illusion, and that everything we do is a simple product of circumstance impacting upon pre-determined responses - and it discourages our aspirations, as human beings, to become more than simply moist robots.
Perhaps we are just moist robots - perhaps all of our altruistic behaviour can be mechanistically explained by effort and personal reward - but I don't think that this in an analysis which will be a helpful one.
I try to act in a way which I feel is the right way to behave, because I feel that this is right and important. I prefer to encourage my children to think the same way too, rather than to think that they are in fact behaving selfishly in doing the right thing. If selfishness is the motivator, then hell with anyone else - I'm gonna be really selfish !

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:13 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:57 PM vimesey has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 203 (668549)
07-22-2012 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Modulous
07-22-2012 5:43 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
It's not something I want to do, it is something I am charged to do; a duty; a requisite of being human.
Often, particularly when it's well over 100F or raining or my hip and leg are killing me it is definitely NOT what I want to do; but it is the right thing to do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:43 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:01 PM jar has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 69 of 203 (668550)
07-22-2012 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by vimesey
07-22-2012 5:44 PM


moist robots
This analysis is ultimately quite a cold and destructive way of viewing things, though, isn't it ?
Since we're discussing ideas inspired by the likes of Dawkins - then its only fitting that I retort: Read Unweaving the Rainbow, which is more or less a whole book designed to refute this conclusion.
quote:
After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with colour, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn't it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked -- as I am surprisingly often -- why I bother to get up in the mornings. To put it the other way round, isn't it sad to go to your grave without ever wondering why you were born? Who, with such a thought, would not spring from bed, eager to resume discovering the world and rejoicing to be a part of it?
Perhaps we are just moist robots - perhaps all of our altruistic behaviour can be mechanistically explained by effort and personal reward - but I don't think that this in an analysis which will be a helpful one.
If we're going to understand human behaviour, so that we can account for it in our social policies, we have to face the reality of the human creature and not hide behind comforting way in which we would like to be.
I try to act in a way which I feel is the right way to behave, because I feel that this is right and important.
Of course! Everybody does! We are driven to do the things we believe are the right things to do. Sometimes we are driven to do things we believe are wrong things to do. Sometimes we do things that in some contexts is wrong, but we can rationalize our way into believing it is right in this particular circumstance.
I prefer to encourage my children to think the same way too, rather than to think that they are in fact behaving selfishly in doing the right thing.
But we might not in fact be behaving selfishly. We may actually be behaving selflessly. It's just that our genes are acting selfishly. Or our memes or whatever.
If selfishness is the motivator, then hell with anyone else - I'm gonna be really selfish !
You're free to try that, but a reasonable examination of the situation would reveal that it is in your self interest to not be (perceived as) a selfish asshole. So even if you are acting purely selfishly, you'll act selflessly.
But it's not just about individual selfishness - sometimes its the genes that are being selfish while the individual is being selfless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by vimesey, posted 07-22-2012 5:44 PM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by vimesey, posted 07-22-2012 6:45 PM Modulous has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 70 of 203 (668551)
07-22-2012 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Modulous
07-21-2012 3:15 PM


Re: selfish replicators, altruistic individuals
Modulous writes:
Could you support your notion of original sin being about selfishly benefiting through apparently self-less acts? And remember, the entity that selfishly benefits does not have to be the selfish organism - that's built into the Selfish Gene idea, and I'd like to see any kind of analogous concept in Original Sin.
I think if I pull this statement out of your last post to me I can deal with your whole post and maybe even butt in on your discussion with jar.
To start with I don’t see original sin to be about selfishly benefitting through apparently self-less acts. As a matter of fact, I don’t see acts that are clearly selfish as original sin. I see both the Christian concept of original sin and Dawkins concept of selfish genes to be about our essence, or our true nature. It is a heart thing. None of us are always going to do the selfish thing and none of us will always do the unselfish thing. It is about the actual desires of our heart. It is about where we find joy. Our acts are a symptom of what is in our heart. None of us IMHO, (including jar in spite of his protestations), are able to be certain about his motivation for taking in the neighbour’s garbage can. However, I and I contend Dawkins would agree, that there are acts that totally self-less acts done that do not have any benefit to the individual, his gene pool, or his tribe. I would suggest again that an example of that is someone who anonymously donates to the third world.
Again I’ll use the quote from Dawkins.
quote:
We have the power to deny the selfish genes of our birth and, if necessary, the selfish memes of our indoctrination.
In this it is strongly implicit that we are born as selfish creatures. (I’m not saying that this is a bad thing, but something that is probably necessary for survival.) Dawkins is also saying that that we can overcome the selfish genes of our birth.
There is no specific Biblical verse that I can use, but I draw my understanding by regarding the context of the entire Bible, and I find it entirely consistent with Dawkins point. We are essentially born selfish. This quote is from wiki under original sin.
quote:
In the theology of the Catholic Church, original sin is regarded as the general condition of sinfulness, that is (the absence of holiness and perfect charity) into which humans are born, distinct from the actual sins that a person commits. This teaching explicitly states that "original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants".[7] In other words, human beings do not bear any "original guilt" from Adam's particular sin, which is his alone. The prevailing view, also held in Eastern Orthodoxy, is that human beings bear no guilt for the sin of Adam.
I don’t see my view as being far from this view. Certainly there are other views, some of which I find reprehensible, but if you insist that only the reprehensible views are valid, then you are simply attacking the straw man which makes it pretty difficult to have a valid discussion.
So again, I believe that Dawkins view that we are born into selfishness by our genes to be consistent with my view, (and the view of others), of the Christian understanding of the situation that we are born into. Both Dawkins and I agree that we are able to rise above that. I understand that you believe that altruism, is never truly altruistic, and that selfish genes can account for all apparent selflessness. I just don’t see any evidence for that. To believe that you would have to believe that all human compassion is born out of self-interest in one way or another. I just don’t see it, but as we can never know what lurks in the hearts of men we can only express our opinions, and my opinion is that you’re wrong.
I’m even prepared to agree with Dawkins that there are non-physical memes that can be the vehicles by which we can rise up and reject the selfish genes of our birth. I would just add one meme that Dawkins would reject, (strongly I might add ), and that is that there is an ever present God that speaks through human, (and maybe even other life forms), imagination, hearts and minds.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Modulous, posted 07-21-2012 3:15 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:32 PM GDR has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 71 of 203 (668552)
07-22-2012 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by jar
07-22-2012 5:46 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
It's not something I want to do, it is something I am charged to do; a duty; a requisite of being human.
Often, particularly when it's well over 100F or raining or my hip and leg are killing me it is definitely NOT what I want to do; but it is the right thing to do.
And your desire to do the right thing, outweighs your desire to avoid pain and discomfort. But where does this desire to do the right thing come from?
You say its a duty, but you are not obligated to follow that duty. You must want to follow that duty, or you would do as many others do: abandon it as convenient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 07-22-2012 5:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-22-2012 6:06 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 74 by jar, posted 07-22-2012 6:10 PM Modulous has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 72 of 203 (668553)
07-22-2012 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Granny Magda
07-22-2012 8:20 AM


Re: Selfish Genes and Original Sin
Granny Magda writes:
Well of course your understanding is new. You are the first to try and shoehorn this particular piece of science into it. I understand that you regard some scripture as inspired, but do you really believe that this extras-Biblical concept is inspired by God? Because that's what it would have to be to incorporate Twentieth century science into Second Century theology. Is that what you're telling us? If so, God seems to have made a bit of a mess of it.
I think I answered the first part of your post in my response to Modulous. Also I quoted part of the wiki page on original sin in my response to Mod as well which shows that my view isn't unique or new.
Frankly I don't know what you mean by "extras-Biblical". Can you explain that and then I'll try to answer your question.
Cheers

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Granny Magda, posted 07-22-2012 8:20 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Granny Magda, posted 07-23-2012 10:45 AM GDR has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 73 of 203 (668554)
07-22-2012 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Modulous
07-22-2012 6:01 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at in your posts. It seems to be your objective to be annoying without being specific. Could you state your own position clearly so that I know what it is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:01 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:44 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 74 of 203 (668555)
07-22-2012 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Modulous
07-22-2012 6:01 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
There is no "desire to do the right thing" as I explained; it is a charge, a duty.
Of course I am obligated to do my duty; certainly folk can fail to do their duty, even deny they have the obligation to do what is right simply because it is the right thing to do with no expectation of reward or return.
I try not to.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:01 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:37 PM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 203 (668556)
07-22-2012 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Modulous
07-22-2012 5:40 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
I mean, what aspect of the concept do you want to see testing for?
You proposed a possible unconscious selfish motive behind jar's act of pushing a cart (or several) back into the store.
I'm curious how it is you plan to test that proposition.
How do you figure out what jar's unconscious motives are?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:40 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:36 PM Jon has replied

  
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