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Author Topic:   Original Sin - Scripture and Reason
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 203 (668544)
07-22-2012 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Modulous
07-22-2012 5:31 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
Because it is something I can do that hurts no one and may help many.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:31 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:43 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 203 (668549)
07-22-2012 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Modulous
07-22-2012 5:43 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
It's not something I want to do, it is something I am charged to do; a duty; a requisite of being human.
Often, particularly when it's well over 100F or raining or my hip and leg are killing me it is definitely NOT what I want to do; but it is the right thing to do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 5:43 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:01 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 74 of 203 (668555)
07-22-2012 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Modulous
07-22-2012 6:01 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
There is no "desire to do the right thing" as I explained; it is a charge, a duty.
Of course I am obligated to do my duty; certainly folk can fail to do their duty, even deny they have the obligation to do what is right simply because it is the right thing to do with no expectation of reward or return.
I try not to.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:01 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:37 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 79 of 203 (668560)
07-22-2012 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Modulous
07-22-2012 6:37 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
Being human.
AbE:
Let me expand on that.
Being a conscious human with a moral base.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:37 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:59 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 203 (668564)
07-22-2012 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Modulous
07-22-2012 6:59 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
Humans love to create labels, like "meme" when what it really is is just common sense.
My jeans have little to do with anything after my teenage years and the effect of genes is irrelevant.
I have no "memes".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Modulous, posted 07-22-2012 6:59 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 07-22-2012 10:07 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 203 (668592)
07-22-2012 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
07-22-2012 10:03 PM


Re: Discussion and debate are not synonymous
I have no idea whether God would be impressed and that is totally irrelevant. In fact if I were doing it to curry favor with God then it would be a selfish act.
It's not a matter of pride to do what is right, it is a duty. There's no benefit earned, no one keeping score, and I did not trot out a laundry list of "boy scout good deeds" until people repeatedly asked for examples.
Our duty, as a human, is to try to transcend the basic animal nature.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 07-22-2012 10:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 96 of 203 (668593)
07-22-2012 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
07-22-2012 10:07 PM


Re: pushing a shopping cart
Evidence Phat?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 07-22-2012 10:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 07-23-2012 11:45 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 107 of 203 (668630)
07-23-2012 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Granny Magda
07-23-2012 10:45 AM


Re: Selfish Genes and Original Sin
He talks instead of how Adam's sin brought us death.
Actually not even that, he doesn't mention Adam or what specific event is referenced and if the reference is to the story in Genesis 2&3 it does not support Paul's assertions.
But I believe there is a connection between the products "Original Sin" and "memes" and "selfish genes" and that is none of them are ever an excuse for not trying to do what is right. Whether the excuse is "my genes made me do it" or "I'm depraved on account of I'm deprived" or "The Fall did it", we are still charged and have a duty to try behave correctly, even if success is impossible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Granny Magda, posted 07-23-2012 10:45 AM Granny Magda has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 124 of 203 (668816)
07-24-2012 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Stile
07-24-2012 3:44 PM


Re: Trying to summarize
I disagree with asserted Fact two.
There are things that are influenced by unconscious acts, by upbringing, by factors out of someone's control, even by genetics, but motives are a conscious act and under someones control. The behaviors I mentioned are conscious acts and under my control. I can determine what the motives for those acts are.
That is particularly true when the act requires some personal sacrifice, taking the time to gather shopping carts when it's 100+ outside or raining or when I'm tired and hurting.
And I can also determine motive when I fail to do such things, I hurt too much, I'm too tired, it's raining too hard, it's just TOO hot.
I do not always respond the same way in all circumstances, but I can reflect on my behavior and determine why I behaved as I did.
Is that applicable to everything I do? No, of course not. And I never claimed that it was applicable to everything I do, but my point is that as a human I am charged to at least try to do what is right and not simply fall back on "memes" or "depraved on account of I'm deprived" or "The Fall" or "Original Sin" or any other label.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Stile, posted 07-24-2012 3:44 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Stile, posted 07-25-2012 1:55 PM jar has replied
 Message 176 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 2:16 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 146 of 203 (668880)
07-25-2012 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Stile
07-25-2012 1:55 PM


Re: Trying to summarize
Maybe you should stop trying to state what my position is.
In the examples I have mentioned I believe that it is 100% possible to determine if my motive for those particular examples is 100% conscious because I do not always behave the same way. When I do not behave the same way I can also determine why I behaved differently.
I am making no general statements or assertions and so the check list you present is simply irrelevant.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Stile, posted 07-25-2012 1:55 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Stile, posted 07-25-2012 2:58 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 150 of 203 (668889)
07-25-2012 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Stile
07-25-2012 2:06 PM


Re: we are in part, by nature, selfless beings.
I think that's an important post.
To try to tie this discussion back to the topic, "Original Sin" is a concept in Christianity even if not strongly held by all chapters of Club Christian, and yes, genetics and upbringing and intelligence and experience and culture and society and the law and likely things I have not mentioned can all "motivate" (as opposed to being the "motive") behavior. However as a Christian I also believe that we have a duty, a responsibility, to always try to do what is right for others even when that may be difficult, unpleasant, counter to our desires and regardless of whether our motivation (as opposed to "motive") is conscious, unconscious, within our control, out of our control, genetic, "Original Sin", "The Fall", "I'm depraved on account of I'm deprived" or any other possibility.
As a human we have control over our behavior within certain limits. Yes, it is possible to alter behavior by surgery, drugs, illness, experience, but those are abnormalities and often can be treated. That does not change the fact that I believe I am charged to try to do what is right for others even when that might not be best for me or what I "want" to do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Stile, posted 07-25-2012 2:06 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 2:25 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 152 of 203 (668891)
07-25-2012 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Stile
07-25-2012 2:58 PM


I am also not a deer.
I don't see how the specific behaviors I've mentioned could be anything but conscious decision.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Stile, posted 07-25-2012 2:58 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Stile, posted 07-25-2012 3:11 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 155 of 203 (668896)
07-25-2012 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Stile
07-25-2012 3:11 PM


Re: I am also not a deer.
Well, we are over in Faith & Belief and so "any specific, conclusive scientific progress on figuring it out" is really pretty irrelevant unless it was pretty conclusive scientific evidence that it was not possible to have actions that are 100% conscious and even then it would likely have to show that overt acts such as the specific ones I mentioned could not be 100% conscious acts.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Stile, posted 07-25-2012 3:11 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 178 of 203 (739246)
10-22-2014 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Phat
10-22-2014 2:16 AM


Re: Trying to summarize
Do you look down on people who use excuses for not going that extra sacrificial mile and trying hardest to do their best?
They lead their lives, I do not. It is not for me to try determine whether they tried their best or not.
Do you believe that if your leg was hurting quite a bit that day that you could ask to be excused from your duty...without sinning as a result of not trying or sacrificing enough?
I'm not at all sure what sin or sacrifice has to do with anything. It really would depend on how much the persons leg was hurting, wouldn't it, and whether or not such practices were a habit.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Phat, posted 10-22-2014 2:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 181 of 203 (790466)
08-30-2016 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
08-29-2016 3:15 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:
The idea that Jesus paid for our sin is a strong one...I wouldn't throw it away quite yet.
The idea that the suits are picking up the bill is certainly more attractive than what Jesus marketed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 4:36 PM jar has replied

  
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