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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 203 of 255 (669849)
08-03-2012 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by broken180
08-01-2012 3:22 PM


eye-glaze
broken180 writes:
Any insight on why my eyes glaze over and my mind switches off when reading the old testament?
what jar says,
jar writes:
The eyeball glaze is most likely the result of not being taught initially what the Old Testament was and having folk tell you that it is one story with one purpose. It's not and never was meant to be one book or have a common purpose.
is probably a large part of the problem. people are taught a particular conception of the bible -- that it's mystical, the word of god, hard to understand and interpret, what it really says and means, etc -- and then upon actually reading it, cognitive dissonance sets in. it is extremely hard to ignore all that kind of stuff, as western culture is so steeped in judeo-christian dogma even atheists are familiar with things the bible supposedly says.
another part, i think, is that translations are frequently obtuse. sometimes, perhaps, intentionally so. the first vulgar translations were considered heretical, because it granted the people power to read (and therefore interpret) the text in their native languages. since then, many churches still prefer antiquated, overly formal rigid translations (eg: KJV) that obscure the content because the audience is unfamiliar with the dialect. compare, for instance, these two translations:
quote:
Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
quote:
You must know and understand: From the issuance of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the [time of the] anointed leader is seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it will be rebuilt, square and moat, but in a time of distress.
this isn't even a particularly good example.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 204 of 255 (669897)
08-05-2012 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by ramoss
05-21-2012 4:06 PM


the identity of the young woman
ramoss writes:
Second of all, if you read the passages in surround this line, you can see that isaiah identifies the young woman as 'the prophetess' (see Isaiah 8:3)
i don't agree that the child is necessarily isaiah's son. for one, the clock has shortened. note that isaha 7 says,
quote:
כִּי בְּטֶרֶם יֵדַע הַנַּעַר, מָאֹס בָּרָע--וּבָחֹר בַּטּוֹב
which is a little more than just saying "no", but knowledge of right and wrong. that would signify, in my opinion, a child just reaching the age of adulthood -- 12 or 13. yet isaiah 8 says,
quote:
כִּי, בְּטֶרֶם יֵדַע הַנַּעַר, קְרֹא, אָבִי וְאִמִּי
being able cry "abi! ami!" is much, much younger. yet these verse are phrased almost exactly the same. if we look at the time between israel and aram waging war against judah (the reason isaiah spoke to ahaz) in 732 BCE, and the destruction israel at the hands of assyria in 720 BCE, you get 12-13 years, the time frame from isaiah 7. yet isaiah 8 is pointing to the same event, with a shorter timeframe.
proto-isaiah seems to have a chiastic structure from chapters 7-11. like so:
  • 7: isaiah takes his son, "a remnant will return" with him to meet ahaz
  • 7: "god is with us" named as a child
    • 8: "hasten for spoil, hurry for plunder" named as a child; "god is with us" meant as judgement (8:8.10)
      • 9: "wonderful councilor, mighty judge, everlasting father, prince of peace", davidic/messianic connotations; the child will lead the government
    • 10: assyria invades israel (the judgement), takes "spoil" and "plunder" (10:6)
  • 11: the "shoot of jesse", again clearly davidic/messianic
  • 11: a "remnant" will be recovered by god (11:11)
basically, because of the structure, and the different dates for the prophecies, i think that 7, 9, and 11 are the same child, where 8 and 10 are talking about a different child. 9 and 11 both clearly have davidic language; that child is the next king. and i think based on the context, the child in 7 is as well.
i would say that the young woman is abijah, ahaz's wife, and the child is hezekiah. my understanding is that this is a fairly traditional jewish view as well. the doctoral thesis i linked up above makes a good case for this.
He confirms that, by saying in Isaiah 8:18 that he and his sons are the signs from God.
to be sure, isaiah has two children who are mentioned in chapters 7 (mirrored in 11) and 8 (mirrored in 10). i think immanuel is a third child, that isn't his. maybe. it's sort of mysterious that, in the verse directly preceding the one where he has sex with a prophetess, he mentions zechariah, which is probably abijah's father.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by ramoss, posted 05-21-2012 4:06 PM ramoss has not replied

  
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