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Author Topic:   Why would God write a book of lies and why would you worship such a being?
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 16 of 86 (670048)
08-08-2012 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by foreveryoung
08-07-2012 11:38 PM


Foreveryoung writes:
I have seen a few Christians claim that many of what appears to be historical documents in the bible, actually did not occur at all.
Well we just do not have very much evidence that alot of it did happen. I always figured most of the bible is stories and parables to teach a lesson rather than a literal passage about something that happened.
If the bible is book that is littered with stories that are pure fiction but that are conveyed in such a way to appear as legitimate, why would you trust anything else that it had to say?
Well I am not sure what examples you are talking about here, but there are so many things that are obviously not legitimate "real" stories, that it is hard for me to understand this perspective.
Why would I trust a book of stories that I think are their to teach morality, because it doesn't have to be literal, to hold truth, and I do not have to believe everything in the bible as truth in order to validate the whole book. There was an intersting thread on bible canon I read recently, that i think ties into this much better. for some denominations having a literal and fully truthful bible is so tantamount for the whole denomination, that the denmonination will ignore logic and reasoning in a effort to validate thier beliefs and thier bible, thank God I do not belong to such a denomination.
If you say some of it is true, is it only because it already agrees with you have decided for yourself to be true?
Or maybe there are other ancient sources that agree with it, that give it some validity, other than the logic of "the bible is true because the bible says it is true"; For example: The Romans did conquer the area and create a province of Judea, the King of the Jews at the time was man name Herod. This is not a truth just because I believe it, but because the Jews, the Romans, and the early Christians all have sources that state this simple piece of information.

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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 583 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 17 of 86 (670057)
08-08-2012 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
08-08-2012 1:35 AM


And how many of those events are essentially to Christianity anyway?
Christianity is about trusting in Christ for salvation. You cannot trust that Christ's saving work on your behalf actually happened or is good enough to do the job if you cannot trust the author of statements to that effect. Why should anyone believe that Christ's atonement is actually able to save anyone if in the same book that is written in, there are stories that are verifiably false?

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 18 of 86 (670060)
08-08-2012 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by foreveryoung
08-07-2012 11:38 PM


If the bible is book that is littered with stories that are pure fiction but that are conveyed in such a way to appear as legitimate, why would you trust anything else that it had to say? If you say some of it is true, is it only because it already agrees with you have decided for yourself to be true?
Truth is true even when its placed along side a falsehood. The more I learned about the world, the more errors I found in the Bible, so its not about me deciding what's true.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(6)
Message 19 of 86 (670062)
08-08-2012 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by foreveryoung
08-08-2012 10:25 AM


Christianity is about trusting in Christ for salvation. You cannot trust that Christ's saving work on your behalf actually happened or is good enough to do the job if you cannot trust the author of statements to that effect. Why should anyone believe that Christ's atonement is actually able to save anyone if in the same book that is written in, there are stories that are verifiably false?
Well, if you're just talking about born again saved by faith in christ christians, then I think you're right. They've built a house of cards faith that rests on the Bible contianing no errors at all and if errors are found then that whole thing comes tumbling down.
But there are other types of christians than that too.

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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 20 of 86 (670063)
08-08-2012 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by foreveryoung
08-08-2012 10:25 AM


What Christianity is
Christianity is about doing what Christ commanded us to do; to heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, teach the children to think critically.
It is not just about the benefits, the "what's in it for me". It's about taking up a cross and trying to do what is right.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 21 of 86 (670066)
08-08-2012 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by foreveryoung
08-07-2012 11:38 PM


Fear
If the bible is book that is littered with stories that are pure fiction but that are conveyed in such a way to appear as legitimate, why would you trust anything else that it had to say? If you say some of it is true, is it only because it already agrees with you have decided for yourself to be true?
I can only speak for myself but the reason I did this for so long was simply because of fear. When you are convinced that your eternal soul is at stake, you had better get it right!
It starts with a simple conflict in your mind. For example, why would god order the massacre of babies? Then there are the absurdities such as a half million people dying in a single battle, something that doesn't even happen with MODERN warfare.
So I think people start to do what jar suggests. They change the definition of "truth". These things cannot have happend (or cannot be good if they did), I cannot dismiss the god concept, therefore there must be some OTHER meaning that has value.
When you get rid of the fear, this all falls away (again at least for me this was true). When you accept that the only thing pinning your hopes to this mish mash of apology is that some imaginary property that you have might "burn" forever in some unknown place under the control of some unseen being, and of all things in the name of "love" and "justice", then it becomes easy.
It just falls away, just like my fear that Thor might strike me down, or that I may be reincarnated as an earthworm. Religion is bullshit and this just happened to be the bullshit that people around me told me was gold.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

BUT if objects for gratitude and admiration are our desire, do they not present themselves every hour to our eyes? Do we not see a fair creation prepared to receive us the instant we are born --a world furnished to our hands, that cost us nothing? Is it we that light up the sun; that pour down the rain; and fill the earth with abundance? Whether we sleep or wake, the vast machinery of the universe still goes on. Are these things, and the blessings they indicate in future, nothing to, us? Can our gross feelings be excited by no other subjects than tragedy and suicide? Or is the gloomy pride of man become so intolerable, that nothing can flatter it but a sacrifice of the Creator? --Thomas Paine

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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 22 of 86 (670067)
08-08-2012 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jazzns
08-08-2012 10:54 AM


Re: Fear
So I think people start to do what jar suggests. They change the definition of "truth".
I'm not sure how I change the definition of "truth". While that may or may not be relevant here it likely is worth discussing.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 23 of 86 (670068)
08-08-2012 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by foreveryoung
08-08-2012 10:25 AM


Why should anyone believe that Christ's atonement is actually able to save anyone if in the same book that is written in, there are stories that are verifiably false?
Genesis and Matthew are not the same book. They don't have the same author, were not written at the same time, and contain descriptions of events that are purported to have happened at least thousands of years apart.
I don't need to believe that snakes ever talked to women believe that Christ died on the cross to save mankind. I don't need to believe Adam ever existed to understand the example Christ set for life. Perhaps you need that link, but I don't.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 24 of 86 (670069)
08-08-2012 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
08-08-2012 11:00 AM


Re: Fear
Your right. A better way to say it may be that you are accepting the value according to a different aspect of truth. I agree that there can be "Truth in Fiction" so to speak.
Hopefully that clarifies and I don't think it changes the thrust of my post.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 25 of 86 (670072)
08-08-2012 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by foreveryoung
08-08-2012 10:25 AM


foreveryoung writes:
You cannot trust that Christ's saving work on your behalf actually happened or is good enough to do the job if you cannot trust the author of statements to that effect.
George says that Jim is an expert juggler. Why do I have to believe George before I can trust Jim?

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 26 of 86 (670077)
08-08-2012 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by foreveryoung
08-07-2012 11:38 PM


Why would God write a book of lies and why would you worship such a being?
Let me start by commenting on that title line.
There is no reason that God would write a book of lies. For that matter, there is no reason that God would write a book at all. As Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the rocks. (Apparently those are part of the words of a song).
I grew up in an evangelical Church. People would commonly speak of the Bible as "The word of God." However, I took that to be a metaphor, not a statement of authorship. I suggest that you consider doing the same.
Let me expand a little on my history. As a young child, my mother would drag us (me and my siblings) off to the Anglican church that she attended. I hated it. I found it excruciatingly boring. So one day I asked "Do I have to go?" I guess that upset the apple cart. After some family discussion, I was given a choice. I either go with my mother, or I attend some other local church. So I tried an evangelical church that was just down the street. And that was not nearly as boring, perhaps because they encouraged me to read the Bible for myself instead of just listening to sleep-inducing sermons.
I have seen a few Christians claim that many of what appears to be historical documents in the bible, actually did not occur at all.
The best historical evidence seems to support that viewpoint.
If the bible is book that is littered with stories that are pure fiction but that are conveyed in such a way to appear as legitimate, why would you trust anything else that it had to say?
I recently came across a blog post that asks the same question Why trust the Bible?. I considered commenting on that blog, but decided not to.
It is the wrong question. Both you, and the owner of that Doubting Thomas blog, are asking whether or why you can trust the Bible. But what would you thereby be trusting?
As I see it, the proper question should be "How can I trust the Bible?" That is to say, what is the appropriate way for me to read and understand the Bible, in a way that I can trust it.
I'm a mathematician (and computer scientist). It never occurred to me that I should "trust" my mathematics text books. Likewise, it never occurred to me that I should trust mathematical theorems that are published in research journals. If I want to know whether a theorem is true, I must work through the proof, make sure that I understand the proof, and come to my own conclusion on whether the theorem is true. Such decisions are too important to be a matter of trusting the author.
I guess one way of putting that, is that I trusted the math textbooks and the teachers to provide guidance for the direction that my study should take. But I did not trust them to settle questions of truth. I had to settle the truth questions for myself.
I'll put it to you that the same holds about the Bible. It is up to you to read it, to understand it, and to decide for yourself the truth question. Use the Bible as a guide for the directions that you should go. But you have to settle the questions of truth for yourself.
In my case, I also grew up with an interest in science. A teacher introduced me to science at around age 10, and I shall forever be grateful to that teacher. So when I read Genesis 1, it was clear that the Bible had a lot of details wrong. I did not reject the Bible. I simply concluded that it was not intended as a science text book, and that it was written for pre-scientific peoples. I mention that as an example of coming to find a way of reading the Bible that would allow me to trust it. It seems to me that you have not yet gone through that step.
I eventually gave up on religion. But, in a sense, I still trust the Bible. It wasn't lack of trust in the Bible that caused me to junk religion. It was a lack of trust in the theology. The claims of the theologians went way too far beyond what the Bible could support. As a simple example, I never was convinced that Jesus had asserted his own divinity.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 27 of 86 (670083)
08-08-2012 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
08-08-2012 7:59 AM


Re: the philosophy of belief/understanding
Phat writes:
Why would God, by definition,realize something only "after a while"? Does not God know all things including all human thoughts?
A while ago, on this forum I suggested that if you step back and read the bible objectively, you will realize that the bible is a life story of god's own evolution.
I didn't come up with this idea on my own, you know. This was pointed out to me by my ethics professor. He didn't believe that god was all knowing or all powerful.
In short, god started out as a child. He made the garden of eden with a forbidden fruit knowing that if you tell a child not to do something chances are he'll do it. Only a child would create such a scenario. Later on in the old testament, god commanded the israelites to exterminate entire civilizations. Every man, woman, and child. Sounds like an angry teenager to me... you know, like foreveryoung. The later parts of the old testament present a god that is willing to talk and negotiate to the israelites instead of just commanding them outright to kill and commit genocide.
And then the new testament comes along which tells us of this god that is all loving. He's even got a son! Finally sounds like a father figure to me.
It's only modern christians like you people that believe god has always been omnipotent and omnipresent. You don't even bother to really study the bible. You just repeat what those hate mongering preachers told you in the first place.
Of course, if we toss the Bible as a reference to how God is and how He behaves, we are then grasping at philosophical straws.
Sounds to me like you're not willing to discuss this at all. I see that it was a mistake for god to give you a brain and the ability to think.
OFF TOPIC
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 28 of 86 (670089)
08-08-2012 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taz
08-08-2012 2:49 PM


Violation - Rule #10
You've been a member since 2006, you know the rules. Argue the position and not the person. Stay on topic.
You're out for 4 hours.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures (aka 'The Whine List') thread.
Thank you
AdminPD Purple

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 29 of 86 (670092)
08-08-2012 5:38 PM


'Why would God write a book of lies and why wold you worship such a being?"
Nice try. But no cigar. You seem to want confirmation in your own conflicted faith.
That is a question you must resolve for yourself.
The name of this forum is FAITH and BELIEF. Without that you have nothing to discuss imo.
OFF TOPIC
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 30 of 86 (670098)
08-08-2012 6:46 PM


God the fool or God the liar
If someone is going to take the position the God actually wrote the Bible or controlled the content of the Bible then I don't see how that person could possibly come to any conclusion other than that God is either a liar or a fool. There are simply far to many stories in the Bible that are absolutely refuted by the evidence in this universe that the same God supposedly created, for example the two or more mutually exclusive flood stories. Either God wrote the stories wrong or God falsified the evidence. Either of those make that God a cheat at best or simply incompetent.
So faced with such conflicts I find my best choice, most reasonable choice, is to try to determine which is most likely.
It's possible of course that God is some Loki like or Coyote like trickster that did fudge the evidence that is this universe. It's possible that God just faked the genetic bottleneck evidence, hid all the evidence of a world-wide flood during the time humans have been on earth, placed fake artificially aged human remains that show humans all over the world tens and hundreds of thousands of years before the Garden of Eden existed.
I can not see any reason to worship such a God.
Or it's possible that God created the universe just as it appears and that just humans wrote the Bible. It's possible that those humans did the best they could with their limited knowledge to describe using tales and fables their understanding of the world and their relationship with their fellow man and their understanding of God. If that is the case then we should be able to see God and morality and culture evolve over time in the stories, and that's pretty much what we see.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
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