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Author Topic:   What type of biological life will more than likely be found on other planets?
ProtoTypical
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Posts: 1701
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 166 of 178 (671193)
08-22-2012 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by jar
08-22-2012 9:39 PM


Re: Rare sapience
Which insects or animals don't have brains?

But look out the window jar. Animal life, replete with brains, is common.


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jar
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Posts: 28422
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 167 of 178 (671194)
08-22-2012 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by ProtoTypical
08-22-2012 9:53 PM


Re: Rare sapience
I look out the window and see plants and trees and worms and some slugs and insects (that are not intelligent by any measure I know of) and the occasional bird or chameleon. By far the things that can be said to have intelligence are in the minority.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Stile
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From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 168 of 178 (671211)
08-23-2012 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by onifre
08-22-2012 11:09 AM


Re: I like to guess
onifre writes:

To steal the idea from Michio Kaku, I think we eventually will need to work as one single unified race of human beings to expand our existence to not just Earth, due to it's limited resources and our inevitable use of all of it.

Yeah, that would be cool.

But for that we would need to shed so many ideologies from race issues, to religious beliefs, to politcal positions and nationalism.

It certainly looks impossible today. And maybe it is. I like to hope it isn't, though.
I'm sure that to many slaves and peasants that died as such in the past... that some of our current cities and social structures would seem like an impossible dream.
We're certainly not on the downhill slope of things yet by any means. There's a long way to go, and it may prove to be impossible. But we are making some progress, at least, and only building upon that foundation will allow us to continue.


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RAZD
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Message 169 of 178 (671213)
08-23-2012 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by jar
08-22-2012 5:16 PM


emergent property?
Hi jar

The fact that there are far more types of unintelligent critters is relevant because it shows that other methods work even better than intelligence.

There is no "better" -- both work in different ways in different ecologies.

The question to me is not which is better, but whether or not intelligence will be an emergent property of evolution under sufficiently appropriate ecological conditions.

My belief is that it is such a property, that if conditions are suitable on another planet that it will arise.

Enjoy.


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jar
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Posts: 28422
From: Texas!!
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Message 170 of 178 (671214)
08-23-2012 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by RAZD
08-23-2012 9:06 AM


Re: emergent property?
You're right, I should not have used the term "better".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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caffeine
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From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
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Message 171 of 178 (671215)
08-23-2012 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by RAZD
08-23-2012 9:06 AM


Re: emergent property?
The question to me is not which is better, but whether or not intelligence will be an emergent property of evolution under sufficiently appropriate ecological conditions.

My belief is that it is such a property, that if conditions are suitable on another planet that it will arise.

Oddly enough, I'm actually partially coming round to jar's point, once he started explaining it and stopped writing posts that were only two lines long.

The question isn't whether intelligence as such will arise. The question is whether intelligence that gives rise to something we would recognise as a technological civilisation will arise. I think that intelligence in the form of problem-solving abilities and social cunning might well be an expected outcome of animal-like life; but it might require a very contingent and specific set of circumstances to lead to an organism which builds things similar to us.

The universe is very, very big, though - so even the staggeringly unlikely may have happened many times.


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ProtoTypical
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Posts: 1701
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 172 of 178 (671216)
08-23-2012 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by caffeine
08-23-2012 9:19 AM


Re: emergent property?
The universe is very, very big, though - so even the staggeringly unlikely may have happened many times.

Not only very big but very nearly homogeneous. Is it likely for there to be anything that is truly unique in the universe?


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New Cat's Eye
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Message 173 of 178 (671228)
08-23-2012 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by caffeine
08-23-2012 9:19 AM


Re: emergent property?
The question isn't whether intelligence as such will arise. The question is whether intelligence that gives rise to something we would recognise as a technological civilisation will arise. I think that intelligence in the form of problem-solving abilities and social cunning might well be an expected outcome of animal-like life; but it might require a very contingent and specific set of circumstances to lead to an organism which builds things similar to us.

I agree. If we find aliens that are on par with ourselves, then they're going to have come from an environment similiar to ours, and then, I think they're going to look a fair amount like us as well, i.e. symmetric, mobile, dexterous, intelligent...

I don't think science fiction like Star Wars and Star Trek are that far off with there being several types of humanoids with varying degrees of differences from "human".


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Dr Jack
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Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 174 of 178 (671229)
08-23-2012 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by ProtoTypical
08-22-2012 9:53 PM


Re: Rare sapience
Which insects or animals don't have brains?

Of the 35 phyla listed by Wikipedia (other sources will give slightly varying numbers), 22 have no brain, 2 have brains in only some species, 2 I wasn't sure about and just nine have brains in all members.

If you take a more generous view of what a brain is and include any cephalisation as a "brain", then about half the 'no brain' phyla switch sides.

So, you see, animals without brains are really not that rare.


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ProtoTypical
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Posts: 1701
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 175 of 178 (671291)
08-24-2012 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Dr Jack
08-23-2012 11:35 AM


The quantum of intelligence
So, you see, animals without brains are really not that rare.

Yes. I regretted the question as soon as I submitted it.

Still, would you describe creatures with brains to be uncommon in the world?

Oni's definition of intelligence is an arbitrary point somewhere near the top of the scale, possessed by only one species. If all life has some common ancestor then the seeds of that intelligence should be possessed by all life.


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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1213
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 176 of 178 (671295)
08-24-2012 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by ProtoTypical
08-24-2012 8:35 AM


Re: The quantum of intelligence
Oni's definition of intelligence is an arbitrary point somewhere near the top of the scale, possessed by only one species. If all life has some common ancestor then the seeds of that intelligence should be possessed by all life.

You mean like the seeds of flight, or the seeds of vitamin c synthesis, or the seeds of coprophagy?


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 177 of 178 (671296)
08-24-2012 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by ProtoTypical
08-24-2012 8:35 AM


Re: The quantum of intelligence
Still, would you describe creatures with brains to be uncommon in the world?

Nope. Plus, it's independently evolved multiple times so I'd argue we'd expect to see brains in all animal-like life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ProtoTypical, posted 08-24-2012 8:35 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1701
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 178 of 178 (671303)
08-24-2012 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by caffeine
08-24-2012 9:08 AM


Re: The quantum of intelligence
You mean like the seeds of flight, or the seeds of vitamin c synthesis, or the seeds of coprophagy?

I guess so, which means it doesn't say anything about the probability of it's development only the possibility.

If the elemental building block of intelligence is something like the ability to respond to your environment then it may be much more necessary to life than other elements. Where does intelligence begin?


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