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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 151 of 349 (671585)
08-27-2012 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
08-27-2012 3:41 PM


Re: Wrongness
When will you people understand that absence of evidence never proves evidence of absence.
And you know that is simply another totally false platitude you use to avoid thinking.
When a shooter claims to have hit the target the absence of holes is evidence that he is wrong.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 152 of 349 (671595)
08-27-2012 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Straggler
08-27-2012 4:58 PM


Re: Wrongness
Either those who believe demons do exist are wrong or those who believe they don't exist are wrong. We may never know which. But we do know for a fact that some beliefs are just factually wrong.
How can it be otherwise?
It could be otherwise if demons actually do exist for people who believe in them.
When someone who has synesthesia sees colours, do those colours actually exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Straggler, posted 08-27-2012 4:58 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Straggler, posted 08-28-2012 7:24 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 153 of 349 (671601)
08-28-2012 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
08-27-2012 3:41 PM


Re: Wrongness
Demons can't be demonstrated to be wrong any more than they can be demonstrated to exist. When will you people understand that absence of evidence never proves evidence of absence.
I can agree that it is not possible to conclusively and absolutely disprove the existence of demons, but only in the logical context where you agree that:
(a) the odds of their existence are precisely the same as the odds of existence of pink unicorns, fairies, Thor and Vishnu (for example); and
(b) the odds of their existence are incredibly small, when compared to more mundane, prosaic explanations, for which we have considerable bodies of evidence (for example, we are aware that psychoses exist - there is a vast body of evidence to support their existence - and the odds that a murderer kills because he is psychotic are much greater than the unevidenced proposition that he was possessed by demons).
(We can then have some fun debating how rational it is to ignore occam's razor)

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 154 of 349 (671602)
08-28-2012 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Dogmafood
08-27-2012 6:58 PM


Re: Wrongness
I believe that demons are fictional entities invented by humans rather than real entities that exist outside of the human mind.
If you agree with this but want to say that demons exist anyway, exist in some sort of conceptual sense or as some sort of metaphorical sense as in personal demons, I hope you will forgive me for not going down that semantically quibblesome ontological rabbit hole.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Dogmafood, posted 08-27-2012 6:58 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by 1.61803, posted 08-28-2012 3:32 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 161 by Dogmafood, posted 08-28-2012 9:13 PM Straggler has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 155 of 349 (671612)
08-28-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
08-27-2012 3:41 PM


Re: Wrongness
Phat writes:
Demons can't be demonstrated to be wrong any more than they can be demonstrated to exist.
What can be demonstrated, often, is a better explanation than demons. Once upon a time, many diseases were supposedly caused by demons - and then we discovered microorganisms, which we can actually interact with in a more-or-less predictable way.
All you have, essentially, is a demon-of-the-gaps argument.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 156 of 349 (671634)
08-28-2012 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Straggler
08-28-2012 7:24 AM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
I believe that demons are fictional entities invented by humans rather than real entities that exist outside of the human mind.
Are we getting back to the supernatural is not real because it can not be known. And if it could be known then science could study it.
But then......it would not be super natural any more.
Bahhhahhhaawwaaa hahaha ha!!!!
What if the man on the street says a demon is as a demon does?
Oh wait.... I got it, demons exist to those who believe in them. However, they are products of the human mind and exist as fiction. But for the average man on the street describing a demon he may not be able to distinguish a super natural demon from a natural one.
So a crazy person acting like a demon is really just a crazy person acting like a demon. Unless one believes that a demon acts like a crazy person who is possessed. But the moment one cast a doubt as to the supernatural evil spirit demon, then it is merely a matter of doubt rather than some empirical evidence that the person who is acting like a demon is not infact a demon.
Academia.edu

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Straggler, posted 08-28-2012 7:24 AM Straggler has replied

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 157 of 349 (671638)
08-28-2012 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by 1.61803
08-28-2012 3:32 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Numbers writes:
Are we getting back to the supernatural is not real because it can not be known. And if it could be known then science could study it.
But then......it would not be super natural any more. Bahhhahhhaawwaaa hahaha ha!!!!
No. If anything I suppose we are getting back to if it is empirically detectable or has an empirically detectable effect then science can study it and if it isn't empirically detectable then how on Earth is anyone detecting it to make claims about it? The Santa paradox...(Ho ho ho).
Numbers writes:
What if the man on the street says a demon is as a demon does?
Then the man in the street should be asked to clarify what he is talking about.....?
Numbers writes:
Oh wait.... I got it, demons exist to those who believe in them. However, they are products of the human mind and exist as fiction. But for the average man on the street describing a demon he may not be able to distinguish a super natural demon from a natural one.
I don't subscribe to your use of "natural" and "supernatural" as being, by definition that which science can study and that which it cannot. Science is restricted to studying the empirical not, necessarily, the natural.
Numbers writes:
Academia.edu
This is even more off-topic than the rest of your post. Do you believe that demons exist and if so who or what do you believe they are?
Do you - For example - Believe that president Obama is the anti-Christ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by 1.61803, posted 08-28-2012 3:32 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 158 of 349 (671639)
08-28-2012 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Straggler
08-28-2012 5:02 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
This is even more off-topic than the rest of your post. Do you believe that demons exist and if so who or what do you believe they are?
No I believe we are in agreement that demons are superstitions. But they can be real to those who ascribe to their existence.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Straggler, posted 08-28-2012 5:23 PM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 08-29-2012 12:13 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 159 of 349 (671640)
08-28-2012 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by 1.61803
08-28-2012 5:20 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
What do you mean by "real"...?
In some sense you could say that Santa Claus is "real" to my 6 year old son.
But (I hate to be the one to tell you) Santa isn't really real.
So is president Obama the anti-Christ? Who, or what, are the demons?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by 1.61803, posted 08-28-2012 5:20 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by 1.61803, posted 08-28-2012 5:46 PM Straggler has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 160 of 349 (671644)
08-28-2012 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Straggler
08-28-2012 5:23 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Hi Straggler, the point of my link was to show how frame of reference can dictate what we otherwise perceive is real.
Someone once said that Romeo and Juliet are fiction, but that does not mean the story does not say something real about love.
Santa Claus is real. If you persist no Minced pies for you on Christmas.
Obama is not the anti-Christ.
That would be Mitt and his demon minion Paul Ryan.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Straggler, posted 08-28-2012 5:23 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2012 5:32 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 161 of 349 (671656)
08-28-2012 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Straggler
08-28-2012 7:24 AM


Re: Wrongness
I hope you will forgive me for not going down that semantically quibblesome ontological rabbit hole.
Well we are talking about demons so I figured you were already about half way down but yeah ok.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Straggler, posted 08-28-2012 7:24 AM Straggler has replied

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 162 of 349 (671674)
08-29-2012 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by 1.61803
08-28-2012 5:46 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Numbers writes:
Hi Straggler, the point of my link was to show how frame of reference can dictate what we otherwise perceive is real.
Sure. For example do you perceive this picture as moving? But is it really moving?
Numbers writes:
Obama is not the anti-Christ.
I agree. But given your apparent position on perception and reality how do you know that those who do perceive Obama to be the anti-Christ are in fact wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by 1.61803, posted 08-28-2012 5:46 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by 1.61803, posted 08-29-2012 10:35 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 163 of 349 (671677)
08-29-2012 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Dogmafood
08-28-2012 9:13 PM


Re: Wrongness
Straggler writes:
I hope you will forgive me for not going down that semantically quibblesome ontological rabbit hole.
Dogma writes:
Well we are talking about demons so I figured you were already about half way down...
You do have a point there!!

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 164 of 349 (671681)
08-29-2012 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Straggler
08-29-2012 5:32 AM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
The picture is a optical illusion. It is not moving, that is how human brains are wired.
How many times have you had a dream that was perceived as reality? Could you distinguish what was a dream and what was not?
....how do you know that those who do perceive Obama to be the anti-Christ are in fact wrong?
I can not KNOW. I can however be skeptical.
We believe the things we do because we choose to believe them imo.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2012 5:32 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 165 of 349 (671685)
08-29-2012 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by 1.61803
08-28-2012 5:20 PM


Re: Wrongness vs realness
Goldie writes:
No I believe we are in agreement that demons are superstitions. But they can be real to those who ascribe to their existence.
There's an important distinction between "real to" and "real". It's called objectivity. We compare our own perceived reality with others to form a consensus of reality. It should make people uncomfortable when something is real to them that isn't real to everybody else.

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