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Author | Topic: How novel features evolve #2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi zi ko,
I Think i could easily use this text to describe the mechanism of how "guided mutations" work in producing evolution! May i? Yes, but you will need to start a new thread for it, that would not add to the debate here and my thread has not been (and not likely to be) opened for discussion (admin and I are considering different or new options for this kind of thread).
I fully subscribe.My "guided mutations' doesn't intend to bring about Supernatural intervention.It seems to me a clearly scientific issue, though very much complicated, involving high and maybe unknoun yet level of biochemistry in relation to simplistic concept of random mutations. And this would be discussed on your new thread, yes? I'd be interested, if you choose that path. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Tangle,
How about a review of where we got to on the lizards and mice, what the problems were, and maybe some suggestions of where to go. This would be a reinstatement of the topic to bring it back in line, and then Percy can enforce strict adherence to that statement. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Hi Zi Ko,
People really do want to discuss guided evolution with you, but you keep bringing it up in existing threads on other topics. If you propose a topic on guided evolution over at Proposed New Topics then in my moderator role I will review it as quickly as I can. --Percy
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zi ko Member (Idle past 3640 days) Posts: 578 Joined: |
Surely if there was a pre-existing adaptive program in insect we would expect it to target the same gene, if no tproduce the exact same mutation, in the various instances of melanism that we have studied?
It seems so.But why do you ignore the third scenario, which is a most propable, as it is on line with the recently reinvented Lamarckism, that is of the the change of whole genome (epi- and deep genome) caused by information flow from environment? On last case we wouldn't expect the same gene target nor the exact same mutation.The sacred caw of randomness in Darvinism should not deter scientits from exploring all possibilities.
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Hi Zi Ko,
People really do want to discuss guided evolution with you, but you keep bringing it up in existing threads on other topics. If you propose a topic on guided evolution over at Proposed New Topics then in my moderator role I will review it as quickly as I can. --Percy
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Taq Member Posts: 10033 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
But why do you ignore the third scenario, which is a most propable, as it is on line with the recently reinvented Lamarckism, that is of the the change of whole genome (epi- and deep genome) caused by information flow from environment? Why should we pay attention to it? What research and evidence do you have? Those are the questions you need to answer in a new thread. Scientists are not interested in what you can imagine. Scientists are interested in how you can bring evidence to bear on a question of interest. Since you have not brought this evidence to bear there is simply nothing to ignore. Science is not "consider the fantasies of a crackpot". It is quite different from that.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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quote: http://news.msu.edu/.../evolution-is-as-complicated-as-1-2-3
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zaius137 Member (Idle past 3430 days) Posts: 407 Joined: |
To the Catholic Scientist
I suppose why you are using E. coli adaptation in this thread is because you believe it is a case for evolution. The adaptation of E. coli has nothing to do with evolution and everything to do with adaptation. E. coli could already transport citrate into the cell and partially use it in wild, but under low oxygen conditions. There is but a few allowed mutations to take place to refine the process to allow full utilization of citrate as a food source. The mechanism was present in E. coli and only needed to adapt in controlled ways to accommodate full utilization. A new species of E. coli did not arise, in fact the variant remains heterozygous to the original variant. The Creationist view is then as follows:
quote: Now are you up to separating designed adaptation from the dogma of evolution? Alternatively, are you claiming evolution is adaptation that leads to speciation? If so, you need a real example of a speciation event, and please do not invoke the magic of time.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Now are you up to separating designed adaptation from the dogma of evolution? Based on your description, the distinction between adaptation and evolution seems to be that you like using the word adaptation. Why don't you articulate why a change caused by mutation, and propagated in a population by selection is not evolution? You 'admit' that E. coli could only poorly use citrate, and acknowledge that the 'adapted' bacteria, which have been demonstrated to be physically different from the original E. coli can fully utilize citrate. You even acknowledge that the source of the changes for the 'adaption' is mutation. We expect that the 'same mechanism' would produce the same results, so when you talk about 'refining the process' all you are really doing is talking nonsense with your fingers in your ears. Using your definition of adaptation, a land mammal can become 'adapted' to living in the ocean, but despite the development of changes that allow it to swim more efficiently and to hold its breath under water longer, you'll claim that the land mammal could already swim and hold its breath so no evidence of evolution has been produced. Given your word usage, I'm perfectly willing to accept that humans and chimpanzees adapted from a common ancestor. What's a species of a bacteria anyway? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
zaius137 writes: The adaptation of E. coli has nothing to do with evolution and everything to do with adaptation. You need some remedial work on your understanding of the definition of evolution. Evolution produces adaptations through a process of descent with modification and natural selection. An experiment that produces adaptations cannot have "nothing to do with evolution."
A new species of E. coli did not arise, in fact the variant remains heterozygous to the original variant. It wasn't intended as an example of speciation, and drawing dividing lines between species of bacteria is fraught with difficulty anyway. Your message reads as if you forgot your point before your reached it. Were you trying to say that the ability to consume citrate was already present in the bacteria and that therefore further development of the trait wasn't an example of novelty? The actual novelty was the ability to absorb citrate in the presence of oxygen, an ability the E. coli did not previously possess. Or are we going to get into a debate about how novel something has to be before it qualifies? --Percy
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4409 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
zaius137 writes: please do not invoke the magic of time So time = magic? Events happen outside of time? What an odd way of thinking.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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zaius137 Member (Idle past 3430 days) Posts: 407 Joined: |
My friend NoNukes. Very good to converse with you again. I always seem to learn something.
My point of view To be precise, an adaptive mechanism for metabolizing a new food source is adaptation. The bacterium always retains its unique form (morphological form) in this case an E. coli. The example of a land dwelling mammal returning to the sea, supposedly inducing legs to become flippers; is pure speculation and not scientific. The observed stasis in identified species is a historical fact.
quote:http://www.brembs.net/gould.html From retrovirus to whale genomes, there is a limit to the change in a given species. To put a point on my uneducated argument: Gene plasticity in bacteria is real, but there is a barrier to macro changes in the Morphology of a species. Furthermore, mutations can and often reverse themselves; An A to G mutation for instance can revert back to a G to A mutation. By this type of event, expression of innate information in the genome can be concealed and (at a later time) restored by subsequent mutations. I am clearly saying that adaptive mutations can and do reverse themselves but some types of deleterious mutations are fatal to an organism (HOX sequence damage) and are not capable of changing an organism to another species. By the way a HOX mutation is exactly what is needed to revert a leg to a fin. This observation has been obvious to the Creationist but ignored by the evolutionist. There is no mechanism know in evolution that actually creates new gene sequences. No new gene sequences NO MACRO EVOLUTION.
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zaius137 Member (Idle past 3430 days) Posts: 407 Joined: |
So time = magic? Events happen outside of time? What an odd way of thinking. You might claim that the Creationist invokes the magic of a creator. I maintain that the evolutionist’s plight is much worst. Observable chemistry and physics does not cooperate with the theory of evolution. He must maintain that an entity such as time (without any intent to create) must take the place of an all-knowing all-powerful creator. The evolutionist’s job is simple; he must locate a new chemistry and a new physics to support the unsupportable premise of spontaneous gene sequence genesis. Invoking more time does not satisfy the untenable nature of the suggestion.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
To put a point on my uneducated argument: Gene plasticity in bacteria is real, but there is a barrier to macro changes in the Morphology of a species. Describe that barrier.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5946 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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You might claim that the Creationist invokes the magic of a creator. I maintain that the evolutionist’s plight is much worst. Observable chemistry and physics does not cooperate with the theory of evolution. He must maintain that an entity such as time (without any intent to create) must take the place of an all-knowing all-powerful creator.
The "evolutionist" (a term that I still maintain is a creationist invention and red herring) does not need to invoke any kind of "new" chemistry nor physics. At least, not so long as we accept the time-frame of earth history that has become apparent by the evidence. That tired old "time as magic" canard is part and parcel of young-earth creationism which ignores the long history of our planet in favor of an extremely shortened chronology of less than 10,000 years.
Invoking more time does not satisfy the untenable nature of the suggestion.
Invoking the correct amount of time, as per the evidence and not as per YEC prejudices, presents no known problems.
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