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Author Topic:   Can the Christian God exist without the Bible?
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 68 of 106 (669715)
08-01-2012 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-20-2005 3:27 PM


God either wants human followers or He doesn't. If a God doesn't want human followers then it's meaningless to believe in Him as He never demands your belief/faith/worship. It makes not much difference to say that such a God doesn't exist as His existence has nothing to do with you.
On the other hand, if God wants humans followers then He must do the following 2 things.
He must do,
1) He must leave humans with an infallible reference for humans to follow. Or else humans don't even know who God is, not to speak how to follow Him.
2) He must assign an earthly authority as a keeper of this infallible reference in order to carry forward this reference alongside human history. Without such an earthly authority, anyone can come out to claim that he has the genuine reference.
Moreover, since this is an earthly authority it is thus corruptible. It thus must be re-assignable when it goes corrupted.
It happens that Christianity is such a religion (perhaps the only one) which claimed to have an infallible Bible. At the same time an earthly authority was assigned as a keeper of this infallible Bible. Though this earthly authority shifted from the Jews to the Catholics till the Protestants, canonically they are keeping the same OT with the Catholics and Protestants sharing the same NT.

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 Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-20-2005 3:27 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 72 of 106 (672382)
09-07-2012 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-20-2005 3:27 PM


There are 2 kind of gods. One demands your faith, the other not. As for the gods who never demanded your faith, their existence has nothing to do with you. You don't need to believe or worship them as they never demand so. Actually it makes not much difference to say that they don't exist as their existence doesn't concern you a single bit.
On the other hand, if a God wants your belief/faith, at least He should do the following 2 things.
First He needs to leave humans with an infallible reference for humans to follow, or else humans don't even know who God is, not to speak how to follow Him.
Second He needs to assign an earthly authority as a keeper of this infallible reference, and to carry it forward alongside human history. Or else, anyone at any point may pop up to claim that his version of reference is the genuine one. On the other hand, because this is an earthly authority it may go corrupted at some point of history. So this authority must be re-assignable.
It happens that Christianity is such a religion (perhaps the only one) claimed to have an infallible Bible. And at anytime an earthly authority was assigned as its keeper. Although this authority shifted from the Jews to Catholics till the Protestants, canonically they are keeping the same version of OT with the Catholics and Protestants sharing the same NT.

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 Message 78 by ringo, posted 09-08-2012 11:56 AM Hawkins has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 79 of 106 (673295)
09-18-2012 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
09-08-2012 11:56 AM


You're leaving out door number three: a God who tells us absolutely nothing about Himself but punishes us for not figuring Him out for ourselves.
===============================================
That's because you mistakenly assume what He should do. In a nutshell, He cares only about His sheep.
And as long as 1/3 humans consider themselves a believer, It's an indicator that He already tells enough for His sheep to answer His call and make a return.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

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 Message 78 by ringo, posted 09-08-2012 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Coragyps, posted 09-18-2012 2:25 PM Hawkins has not replied
 Message 81 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 2:28 PM Hawkins has replied
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 2:59 PM Hawkins has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 82 of 106 (673319)
09-18-2012 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
09-18-2012 2:28 PM


Re: unworthy gods.
If you believe in some God that cares only about His sheep then you believe in a God that is unworthy of my respect or worship and that quite frankly, one that as a Christian I must oppose.
======================================
If you like a Shepherd feeding His sheep to wolves, be my guest. "Sheep" is an analogy showing that a Shepherd can't love both the wolves and the sheep at the same time. Either He leave the wolves in poverty for the love of the sheep, or feed them with the sheep for the love of the wolves.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

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 Message 81 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 2:28 PM jar has replied

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 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 3:03 PM Hawkins has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 85 of 106 (673322)
09-18-2012 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ringo
09-18-2012 2:59 PM


How do you conclude that 1/3 is right and 2/3 are wrong?
============================================
By analysis you can tell, from multiple perspective including what the nature of history is and how many gods understand this nature. Moreover, there's nothing 100% guaranteed that's why faith is needed.
Here, I already excluded personal experience which you never buy into.
Moreover, logically you have to have one faith or another which can be identified by the following question,
does afterlife exist?
It's reflection of your faith whether your answer is a yes or no.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

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 Message 83 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 2:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 3:53 PM Hawkins has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 86 of 106 (673326)
09-18-2012 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
09-18-2012 3:03 PM


Re: unworthy gods.
Sorry but as a Christian I must point out to you that the god you are trying to market is just plain evil and unworthy of my respect but certainly worthy of my contempt.
===========================
On the other hand, that usually is based on your own interpretation and mostly your own intelligence which you don't have the capability to doubt about.
This can be told even from your own wording,
"you are trying to market"
don't assume so! In the end, it's your own life which only you would care. If you don't no one will.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

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 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 3:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 4:33 PM Hawkins has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 88 of 106 (673346)
09-18-2012 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
09-18-2012 3:53 PM


No faith is required. I haven't seen any evidence of an afterlife so I don't "believe" in an afterlife but I don't disbelieve either.
==================================
Let me make it more obvious for you.
Certain witnesses claim that there's a bomb near your house. They'd die for the claimed truth.
So how do you decide to leave or stay? Evidence?
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

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 Message 87 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 3:53 PM ringo has replied

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 Message 89 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 4:19 PM Hawkins has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 90 of 106 (673358)
09-18-2012 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
09-18-2012 4:19 PM


I would stand back temporarily. Then I would want to see some evidence that there really is a bomb, not just the word of some guy.
================================================
The margin is how you evaluation "when the bomb will blast". You behave so because the truth can only come with the bomb blasted or not. You don't risk when there's a chance that "it is the moment that it will blasted".
So you decision "to leave" or "to stay" is made based on the blasting line. The analogy here is the question that what drives your decision at the moment that the bomb will blast anytime.
The two option is to leave by recognize its chance, or to stay as a belief that it's a hoax. Waiting for evidence is not an option because you have only one life to loose.
That's the point of the analogy. In reality the moment of the blast is the moment of your death. So before this "blasting line", "not believe" and "not disbelieve" doesn't seem to be an option, may be you've already made up your mind to disbelieve, instead of "not disbelieve".
Moreover, it doesn't make sense that at the moment right before one's death, he still in between belief and disbelief. Most likely he's already chosen to disbelieve, that's he doesn't need to worry. This is however a sub-conscious decision.

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 Message 89 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 4:19 PM ringo has replied

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 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 4:42 PM Hawkins has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 92 of 106 (673363)
09-18-2012 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
09-18-2012 4:33 PM


Re: unworthy gods.
What you are marketing is what Jesus preached against in Luke 4 and the position of the Goats in Matthew 25
===========================
The idea of preaching is to let the information flow such that one can make a decision.
In Christianity, the Shepherd will only call upon His sheep. There's no need to market to the wolves or goats as His sheep will recognize His voice to make a return.
Again, no one knows what would happen after death. It remains your own responsibility to choose wisely. No one else cares more about your life than you yourself do.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

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 Message 91 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 4:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 4:45 PM Hawkins has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 94 of 106 (673368)
09-18-2012 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
09-18-2012 4:42 PM


But waiting at a reasonably safe distance is an option.
======================================
You are right in the case of the analogy. But in reality, you can die at any moment. You evaluation is only based on a rough statistic. Moreover, there is a point where your decision may have already been made subconsciously. This may be the case of those who never try to "wait at a safe distance".
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

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 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 4:42 PM ringo has replied

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 Message 99 by ringo, posted 09-18-2012 5:02 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 96 of 106 (673372)
09-18-2012 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
09-18-2012 4:45 PM


Re: unworthy gods.
Sorry but again, you are marketing only the "What's in it for me" Christianity.
=============================================
I am trying to preach what I think the Bible is saying which at the same time I assume that you misunderstood.
That is simply too small and worthless for me to consider.
=============================================
Hmm, who cares? That's the point.

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 Message 95 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 4:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 4:54 PM Hawkins has replied
 Message 100 by Theodoric, posted 09-18-2012 5:16 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 98 of 106 (673380)
09-18-2012 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
09-18-2012 4:54 PM


Re: unworthy gods.
Who cares what?
=============
Who cares about your comment that "it's worthless for me to consider". No one cares, it's your own life in the end.
================
If GOD exists and if there is an afterlife and if there is a heaven I am quite sure there will be far more atheists, agnostics, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Taoists, Wicaans, Satanists, followers of Confucius, Mencius, Buddha and animists then Christians sitting at the table.
================
Again, if that's your belief so be it. No one cares.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 09-18-2012 4:54 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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