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Author | Topic: Do We NEED God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Didn't Timothy Leary say something similar about LSD? I personally believe that we humans need a Creator/mentor all wise guide that encourages and inspires humanity to fulfill our best aspirations. Addicts "need" their drug. They won't die without it but they might wish they were dead.
Phat writes:
I agree completely. I fully expect that some day we will fail to meet the challenge and become extinct. It's happened to more successful species than ours. Perhaps our greatest strength is our personal and societal responsibility for our own destiny, but I believe that we are flawed in the ability to achieve this goal. The problem with "needing" some Higher Power to solve our problems for us is that we've never found one that will do it reliably. Your favourite is actually promising to wipe us out some day. I see that as a problem rather than a solution.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
So you're saying that we only "need" God eventually, when He comes to kill everybody who doesn't accept Him?
This only poses a problem for those who refuse to believe. Even those who can't believe will eventually be given enough evidence to cast a free vote aye or nay.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
I'm not presenting the picture. I'm asking Phat if he is.
The trouble is Ringo that the picture that you present for Christianity is a strawman.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You seem to be describing a god that would be somewhat useful rather than one that's "necessary". Sure, it would be nice to have a friend who always answers the phone and drops everything to come over and help me do things that I can't do by myself. I maintain that in order to need God, God would have to be:Potentially Interactive with humanity Possessive of a level of wisdom and insight that no human has yet attained. Caring of us...not vindictive or angry so as to wipe us out or...even worse...ignore us. But nobody seems to be claiming that there is a god lke that. The gods that are for sale seem to answer when they feel like it and help when they feel like it. I already have friends like that, so why do I need another one? How can I "need" a god that even theists don't claim exists?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
But the particles themselves will endure past death.
All of us, atheist and theist alike have a dream of leaving their mark on this world that endures past death. It might be kids, a beautiful painting or piece of music, a scientific breakthrough, a medical cure or even improving the lot of the less fortunate. I know that you will disagree but if we are the result of just a mindless collection of particles then the fact that we feel that way makes very little sense to me. quote:
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
I come to the opposite conclusion, that we can aspire to be particles.
It seems reasonable to conclude that we are more than just the particles that make up our bodies.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So believing in France assumes that we need France?
And of course, believing in God would also assume that we need God. Phat writes:
Remember the beam in the eye?
The only thing that scares me about what you believe has to do with the scripture that suggests that we who feel self sufficient are blind since we don't acknowledge our blindness..(our need.)quote: At least some of the followers are blind too.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Diomedes writes:
Maybe. It makes sense that people feel good marching with the parade but what if there is no parade? Maybe they just feel good not having to march.
So happiness in a certain sense is more correlated with that of conformity than anything else.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
riVeRraT writes:
And find them.
We need hope, we need understanding, we need Love, and a bunch of other human nessessitys.... People who don't believe in a god, still seek those things.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That may be what your theology says but it is definitely not what the New Testament says. You're the one taking the Bible out of context.
According to NT Theology, God would not be the One doing the wiping. Humans in and of themselves are quite capable of wiping themselves out of existence. Phat writes:
Then He could do so very easily.
The God whom I believe in has a vested interest in keeping as many of us alive as possible.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Come on. How many times do we have to go through this?
the only people who get wiped out in the NT are the ones who follow the Beast.quote:There's nothing about following any "Beast" and there's nothing about believing in any resurrection.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nonsense. God wipes them out because they don't do what he wants them to do.
Yes, but according to that verse those people wipe themselves out. God does not wipe them out. Phat writes:
We are responsible for the natural consequences. If you knowingly drop a hammer on your foot you're responsible for the damage. But if God slaps you upside the head for dropping your hammer, that isn't a natural consequence and you aren't responsible. He is. Be careful what you do for you are fully responsible for the outcome. Do you really want to argue that we "need" God to add unnecessarily to our woes?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Okay, let's try this again:
If God slaps you--yes He is responsible.quote:Do you picture people asking, "Which way to the everlasting punishment?" Do we "need" God to give us directions? Maybe you should call Disney and suggest that they open an everlasting punishment ride.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You know that isn't true. Believers have no monopoly on logic, reason and reality. Even believers don't believe that.
To a believer, the very idea of logic, reason, and reality insist upon communion with God.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What are you talking about? But believers do have a monopoly(by default and by world view) on God. We believe that life itself is made possible only by and through God. The monopoly, in my mind, is God Himself. In Message 143 you said, "To a believer, the very idea of logic, reason, and reality insist upon communion with God," and in Message 145 I replied, "Believers have no monopoly on logic, reason and reality. Even believers don't believe that." Your only response seems to be word salad.
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