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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
Genologist
Junior Member (Idle past 4207 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kadoma, Mashonaland West, Zimbabwe
Joined: 09-15-2012


(1)
Message 16 of 224 (673500)
09-19-2012 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
09-19-2012 2:56 PM


Re: God, by definition
This all depends on how God is defined. If we go strictly by the book,(the good book, of course ) than yes. The general idea is that imperfect humans will eventually fail and that the savior will return to save His own.(who, by the way, are "whosoever". )There is no excuse that God picks His favorites, given that whosoever believes will be saved.) This only poses a problem for those who refuse to believe.
Quite right. But in answer to the question do we "need" God? In many respects the first part of the answer is NO, not in this life anyway, not in the sense that a cow can survive on impoverished grass (but would thrive on, lush green grass). You can go through this life "apparently" quite fine as an atheist, I don't even think you need God to fulfill certain goals, indeed there are several examples of atheists who on the surface acheive a lot, Christians believe that "they that build the house without the Lord labour in vain" (Psalm 127:1), we have all done stuff in vain when we do not include God in our plans.- The truth for a Christian is that to each (everybody, even athiests) is given a measure of faith. It is what we do with that faith that counts. Faith is like a muscle with the genetic potential to grow really big, we must "exercise" it ie sincerely and persistently seek after the truth with an open heart. Conversely if we don't our spirits will remain dormant and in a state of "atrophy". So in short you don't strictly need God in this life, but you may never achieve fulfilment or your real purpose, therefore you are always empty, always wanting. Of course atheists will hotly dispute this so your question is loaded . The second part of my answer is YES we do absolutely need God in this life at least for the next, and yes we can acheive great things for our fellow man, for nations with the help and conviction of God, indeed every nation that has ever been founded on Christian values has been great, but we need an active, sincere and truthful relationship. We are primarily spirit beings with a human component, not human beings with a spiritual component, so when we die we are released from the "shackles" of this body and remain purely spirit. Is it worth risking life as an avowed atheist? I don't think so. I often think how terrifying it must be for an atheist in the moments before they die if they know they are dying, the doubt, the terror. No, pursue truth in spirit, not just intellect, although there is plenty of evidence for a Creator around us so that we are not without excuse. Romans 1:19,20.
Edited by Genologist, : to "put" it better

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 09-19-2012 2:56 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 17 of 224 (673504)
09-19-2012 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
09-19-2012 3:17 PM


Re: God, by definition
ringo writes:
The problem with "needing" some Higher Power to solve our problems for us is that we've never found one that will do it reliably. Your favourite is actually promising to wipe us out some day. I see that as a problem rather than a solution.
ringo writes:
So you're saying that we only "need" God eventually, when He comes to kill everybody who doesn't accept Him?
The trouble is Ringo that the picture that you present for Christianity is a strawman. Yes, there are some Christians who believe that but it is neither mainstream nor even biblical.
The Christian message is when this world comes to an end that all things will be renewed, which is a far cry from the idea that he will wipe us all out.
The Bible is also clear is that by rejection it is talking about rejection of His message of love, forgiveness, peace, kindness etc.
The Christian message is that in the end there will be perfect justice. What that looks like I don't know, but the Bible tells us that it is about our hearts. Just maybe perfect justice will wind up meaning that the serial rapist who was abused and despised as a child will be closer to the heart of God than some sanctimonious church goer who has all the answers. Paul is pretty clear when he says that we aren't to judge and I think he got it right.
Is God necessary? How could we possibly know? I believe that God is necessary and I have my reasons for thinking that but all I really know is how things are. (Even that is questionable.) Obviously we can carry on believing or not believing in God’s existence. The question then becomes unanswerable because we would have to understand the difference between how the world is now and how it would look like if God exists and how it would look if He didn’t.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 09-19-2012 3:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 18 of 224 (673505)
09-19-2012 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by GDR
09-19-2012 5:43 PM


Re: God, by definition
GDR writes:
The trouble is Ringo that the picture that you present for Christianity is a strawman.
I'm not presenting the picture. I'm asking Phat if he is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 09-19-2012 5:43 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 09-19-2012 10:45 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 224 (673516)
09-19-2012 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
09-19-2012 6:06 PM


Re: God, by definition
Ringo writes:
I'm not presenting the picture. I'm asking Phat if he is.
And all Im saying is that for the purpose of this discussion, the God that we can find consensus with need not be strictly defined the way that He has been defined previously.
I maintain that in order to need God, God would have to be:
  • Potentially Interactive with humanity
  • Possessive of a level of wisdom and insight that no human has yet attained.
  • Caring of us...not vindictive or angry so as to wipe us out or...even worse...ignore us.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by ringo, posted 09-19-2012 6:06 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 9489
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.9


    (3)
    Message 20 of 224 (673541)
    09-20-2012 6:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 16 by Genologist
    09-19-2012 5:08 PM


    Re: God, by definition
    Genologist writes:
    You can go through this life "apparently" quite fine as an atheist, I don't even think you need God to fulfill certain goals, indeed there are several examples of atheists who on the surface acheive a lot, Christians believe that "they that build the house without the Lord labour in vain" (Psalm 127:1), we have all done stuff in vain when we do not include God in our plans.- The truth for a Christian is that to each (everybody, even athiests) is given a measure of faith. It is what we do with that faith that counts. Faith is like a muscle with the genetic potential to grow really big, we must "exercise" it ie sincerely and persistently seek after the truth with an open heart. Conversely if we don't our spirits will remain dormant and in a state of "atrophy". So in short you don't strictly need God in this life, but you may never achieve fulfilment or your real purpose, therefore you are always empty, always wanting. Of course atheists will hotly dispute this so your question is loaded .
    Despite apologising in another thread for the calumny of suggesting that we atheists do moral things only for selfish reasons, you now write this rubbish telling me that I'm spiritually "empty, always wanting"; that my spirit is in a state of atrophy and that my achievements are superficial.
    You sir, are an offensive bigot, hiding your prejudice behind what you call a faith but what real Christians wouldn't recognise as such.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 16 by Genologist, posted 09-19-2012 5:08 PM Genologist has not replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 21 of 224 (673545)
    09-20-2012 7:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 16 by Genologist
    09-19-2012 5:08 PM


    Which God to Choose...
    Oooh you've convinced me....
    So, having decided that we do need god, which god do we need? Does it matter which one we choose?
    You obviously will tell me I need the Christian god. A Moslem will tell me I need the Islamic god. A Hindu will tell me I need a different god. A scientologist will tell me that belief in Thetans will undoubtably cure me of the inner emptiness you speak of.
    So what to do?
    I want to definitively decide which god it is that I apparently need. So I've decided to get a book of gods and goddesses (a sort or encyclopedia of deities) and try each one in alphabetical order until the inner emptiness is cured.
    Is this a valid approach in your view? If not how do you suggest that I find the right god without just taking your word for it?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 16 by Genologist, posted 09-19-2012 5:08 PM Genologist has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 22 by Phat, posted 09-20-2012 10:43 AM Straggler has replied
     Message 32 by GDR, posted 09-21-2012 3:24 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 22 of 224 (673563)
    09-20-2012 10:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 21 by Straggler
    09-20-2012 7:28 AM


    Re: Which God to Choose...
    Straggler writes:
    I want to definitively decide which god it is that I apparently need. So I've decided to get a book of gods and goddesses (a sort or encyclopedia of deities) and try each one in alphabetical order until the inner emptiness is cured.
    My point is this: Throw the books away. Start from scratch. God by definition. Write your own book. Make your own definition. The only requirement is that this God cannot be your own superego. He/She/It has to be an actual Being apart from yourself.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 21 by Straggler, posted 09-20-2012 7:28 AM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 23 by Straggler, posted 09-20-2012 11:31 AM Phat has replied
     Message 25 by Stile, posted 09-21-2012 10:28 AM Phat has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    Message 23 of 224 (673574)
    09-20-2012 11:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
    09-20-2012 10:43 AM


    Re: Which God to Choose...
    Phat writes:
    My point is this: Throw the books away. Start from scratch. God by definition. Write your own book. Make your own definition. The only requirement is that this God cannot be your own superego. He/She/It has to be an actual Being apart from yourself.
    OK. I'm sitting here with a blank page. I'm waiting to have the emptiness inside me Geno insists I have filled. I'm waiting to have the page in front of me filled.
    Who - But me - is going to fill it? And if I fill it, by inventing some godly character, how can it be anything other than some sort of personification of that which resides in my own mind? I don't see how it is possible for me to both write the book AND disengage myself from the contents of the book to the extent that it isn't just a reflection of my own mind....
    Help me here.....

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Phat, posted 09-20-2012 10:43 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (2)
    Message 24 of 224 (673579)
    09-20-2012 12:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
    09-19-2012 10:45 PM


    Re: God, by definition
    Phat writes:
    I maintain that in order to need God, God would have to be:
    Potentially Interactive with humanity
    Possessive of a level of wisdom and insight that no human has yet attained.
    Caring of us...not vindictive or angry so as to wipe us out or...even worse...ignore us.
    You seem to be describing a god that would be somewhat useful rather than one that's "necessary". Sure, it would be nice to have a friend who always answers the phone and drops everything to come over and help me do things that I can't do by myself.
    But nobody seems to be claiming that there is a god lke that. The gods that are for sale seem to answer when they feel like it and help when they feel like it. I already have friends like that, so why do I need another one?
    How can I "need" a god that even theists don't claim exists?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by Phat, posted 09-19-2012 10:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    (2)
    Message 25 of 224 (673669)
    09-21-2012 10:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
    09-20-2012 10:43 AM


    Needing help is not the same as needing God
    Phat writes:
    Throw the books away. Start from scratch. God by definition. Write your own book. Make your own definition.
    I think this is an excellent plan. We are all different people with different needs. Therefore, we all need our own solution to the problem of "inner emptyness."
    The only requirement is that this God cannot be your own superego. He/She/It has to be an actual Being apart from yourself.
    Wait... what? Why?
    Why are you making this a requirement? Why do you want to restrict how other people may decide to deal with their inner emptyness? I just don't see the connection. It seems a bit like you're stretching beyond the boundaries of where you should stop trying to control other people.
    Phat writes:
    Perhaps God won't ever make a return appearance to simply bail us out. Perhaps She foreknows that life will become more and more difficult until we globally learn that consensus is preferable to anarchy.
    (Message 12)
    Did you just suggest that maybe God won't help us out until we get fed up enough to help ourselves out?
    Perhaps God doesn't exist and people just get fed up on their own and take a stand after dealing with too much flak.
    Phat writes:
    The general idea is that imperfect humans will eventually fail and that the savior will return to save His own.(who, by the way, are "whosoever". )There is no excuse that God picks His favorites, given that whosoever believes will be saved.) This only poses a problem for those who refuse to believe. Even those who can't believe will eventually be given enough evidence to cast a free vote aye or nay.
    (Message 11)
    I notice here that at the end you mention that even those who can't believe will still get a shot at acknowledging that God exists and everything could work out okay.
    With that in mind, do you still require that God cannot be your own superego or that He/SheIt has to be an actual Being apart from yourself?
    I should note that I don't think atheists should supplant their own superego in place of God. I think that is pretty much just as strange. I think the best way to deal with our inner emptyness is to acknowledge that we have an inner emptyness and to deal with it. Some people don't even have an inner emptyness (lucky ducks!!). But for those of us who do, I don't see a reason to invent a "great and powerful" anything in order to deal with it. If that works for you, then great. If God is that great and powerful thing and makes you feel better... awesome. If your own superego is that great and powerful thing that helps you out... good for you! But I don't think any great and powerful anything is needed. I'm quite happy to accept that I have a certain inner emptyness sometimes. I'm able to simply deal with it and accept it as a part of myself being me (a human with unique quirks).
    Phat writes:
    We need God because we are either unable or unwilling to lay aside our own wants and desires enough to solve the major problems of the world. Wars have always existed, for example, and dont appear to be getting any less violent. Human greed is as pervasive as ever.
    (Message 9)
    I think you mean that you need God because we are either unable or unwilling to lay aside our own wants and desires enough to solve the major problems of the world. Why do you think everyone needs God to do this? Why do you that one solution would work for everyone for such a major issue that affects such a vast number of different people?
    Wars have always existed And the one answer of "God" has been used to try and fix these problems for many, many years. But, as you say... human greed is as pervasive as ever. It doesn't seem like this one answer has the desired goal of fixing the problem.
    Maybe it's time to let go of your human greed of this one solution as a "fix-all" for anything and everything. Perhaps it's time to open your mind, let go of the greed, and look at all options for all the innocent people involved to get the satisfaction they're looking for and deserve. Your clutching grasp on God as "everyone's answer" is part of the problem, not the solution. One day we will have to accept that people are different and that their solutions are not necessarily going to be the same (or even give respect to) our solutions. But, as long as they don't harm us... why should we require them to have the same solution, or to respect our solution? What's the problem? Is it our pride?
    I am pessimistic in my expectation that humans shall ever overcome these problems on our own.
    I am only pessimistic that humans will ever overcome these problems with a single solution. If we can free ourselves of forcing everyone into a single cannister of what we think is right... we will then have the tools necessary to dig ourselves out of these issues.
    Phat writes:
    I personally believe that we humans need a Creator/mentor all wise guide that encourages and inspires humanity to fulfill our best aspirations.
    (Message 1)
    I don't think so.
    I think all we need is to recognize that different people need different tools to help them deal with the issues we all face.
    Doesn't really seem all that complicated.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Phat, posted 09-20-2012 10:43 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by Phat, posted 09-21-2012 1:55 PM Stile has replied
     Message 122 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:15 PM Stile has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 26 of 224 (673689)
    09-21-2012 1:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by Stile
    09-21-2012 10:28 AM


    Re: Needing help is not the same as needing God
    Stile writes:
    Why do you want to restrict how other people may decide to deal with their inner emptiness? I just don't see the connection. It seems a bit like you're stretching beyond the boundaries of where you should stop trying to control other people.
    I certainly respect your input as well as your response to my musing. It seems as if the nail has been hit on the head.
    Some people definitely don't think that God is necessary. The issue of control also comes up, and apologists often mention that one hallmark characteristic of many atheists/agnostics is the insistence upon having a freely chosen life free from the control of any deity or organized religious influence. People like me, in contrast, seem to crave the need of an outer agent of control and feel lost would we have to live in a universe free from such control.
    The good book says "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
    Some would suggest that being like children implies needing some sort of super parent. A case could be made that many religious people simply don't want to grow up and face responsibility.
    Stile writes:
    I notice here that at the end you mention that even those who can't believe will still get a shot at acknowledging that God exists and everything could work out okay.
    With that in mind, do you still require that God cannot be your own superego or that He/SheIt has to be an actual Being apart from yourself?
    Well.... I DO want God to exist, if thats what you mean. In fact, I believe that God exists apart from our imagination of such a Deity. To throw that away would be to throw away my inner hope for a rescuer more powerful than myself. I suppose in all honesty I don't ever see myself(and by extension humanity) able to solve life's toughest issues.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by Stile, posted 09-21-2012 10:28 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by hooah212002, posted 09-21-2012 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 33 by Stile, posted 09-21-2012 3:32 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 27 of 224 (673691)
    09-21-2012 1:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
    09-20-2012 11:31 AM


    Re: Which God to Choose...
    Straggler writes:
    Help me here.....
    Hmmmm...that could be a prayer of sorts...
    Maybe you have asked for help a lot and found yourself still with a blank page. If so, I can see why you would doubt the existence of any sort of helpful Deity.
    Perhaps the difference between us is that I want such a Deity to exist more than you do....(?)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Straggler, posted 09-20-2012 11:31 AM Straggler has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by jar, posted 09-21-2012 2:03 PM Phat has replied
     Message 31 by hooah212002, posted 09-21-2012 2:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    (1)
    Message 28 of 224 (673692)
    09-21-2012 2:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
    09-21-2012 1:59 PM


    Re: Which God to Choose...
    Would you settle for a benign dictator that cure diabetes, guarantees a comfortable retirement, passes a law that new folk can't take YOUR job, provides four weeks of cost free vacation annually, puts on arousing feel good get togethers and parties?

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by Phat, posted 09-21-2012 1:59 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 29 of 224 (673693)
    09-21-2012 2:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 28 by jar
    09-21-2012 2:03 PM


    Re: Which God to Choose...
    jar writes:
    Would you settle for a benign dictator that cure diabetes, guarantees a comfortable retirement, passes a law that new folk can't take YOUR job, provides four weeks of cost free vacation annually, puts on arousing feel good get togethers and parties?
    The retirement sounds nice. I want to have challenges in life...I just don't want them to be overwhelmingly more than I can handle. I am unafraid to work hard and try and do my best, but I don't fancy the idea of going home every day with a sore back and a tired mind.
    I like the idea of a stronger mind and body every day.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 28 by jar, posted 09-21-2012 2:03 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
    hooah212002
    Member (Idle past 801 days)
    Posts: 3193
    Joined: 08-12-2009


    Message 30 of 224 (673694)
    09-21-2012 2:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
    09-21-2012 1:55 PM


    Re: Needing help is not the same as needing God
    apologists often mention that one hallmark characteristic of many atheists/agnostics is the insistence upon having a freely chosen life free from the control of any deity or organized religious influence.
    Don't you think it strange that only apologists say this sort of thing? What do atheists say when confronted with this? I'll tell you: they say it's bullshit. I would go so far as to say that very few atheists are so because of this reason. It's an excuse thought up and proposed by apologists and apologists only.
    To throw that away would be to throw away my inner hope for a rescuer more powerful than myself. I suppose in all honesty I don't ever see myself(and by extension humanity) able to solve life's toughest issues.
    Why burden yourself so? Who expects you to "solve lifes toughest burdens" other than you and your imagined sky father? Take one bite of pizza at a time.

    "Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

    This message is a reply to:
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