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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 31 of 224 (673695)
09-21-2012 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
09-21-2012 1:59 PM


Re: Which God to Choose...
Perhaps the difference between us is that I want such a Deity to exist more than you do....(?)
Do you realize now that you have projected your want for a god onto telling others that they NEED this god? Do you realize, maybe, that only YOU need this god?

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

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 Message 27 by Phat, posted 09-21-2012 1:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
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Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 32 of 224 (673705)
09-21-2012 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Straggler
09-20-2012 7:28 AM


Re: Which God to Choose...
Straggler writes:
Oooh you've convinced me....
So, having decided that we do need god, which god do we need?
In the end the point is whether a god, (or if you like an intelligence outside of our physical experience who is responsible for our existence), exists or not.
Straggler writes:
Does it matter which one we choose?
If God exists then that is the only one to choose. However, what matters is what we believe His attributes are, and what desires He might have for our thoughts and actions. (In discussion I would agree that someone who worships a god that is in favour of stoning to death those who pick up firewood on the Sabbath, is a different god than one who wants us to forgive and love friends and enemies alike. However in the end both acknowledge God but understand His nature differently.)
Straggler writes:
You obviously will tell me I need the Christian god. A Moslem will tell me I need the Islamic god. A Hindu will tell me I need a different god. A scientologist will tell me that belief in Thetans will undoubtably cure me of the inner emptiness you speak of.
So what to do?
I want to definitively decide which god it is that I apparently need. So I've decided to get a book of gods and goddesses (a sort or encyclopedia of deities) and try each one in alphabetical order until the inner emptiness is cured.
Is this a valid approach in your view? If not how do you suggest that I find the right god without just taking your word for it?
If we actually had a definitive answer then we would have had to compromise our free will to choose. A definitive answer is not an option.
The question is essentially whether or not a god(s) even exist. As I have said in earlier discussions I’m convinced that the existence of an intelligent first cause for our existence is far more probable than not. If I had come to the opposite conclusion then the whole discussion is moot. The fact that we have so many religions on offer is because we are human and I believe that we live in a non-deterministic world where the future is open and we have the free will to make choices.
As a result we all come to our own conclusions of what we will believe. I think that in our lives we would all agree that there is an on-going pull between self interest and concern for the interests of others. I think that it is in many ways it is this struggle that leads us to form our ideas about the attributes of God.
I think that we would all agree that theists of all stripes would agree that their religion is a guide as to how they should organize their lives. Non-theists do the same thing but look elsewhere to come to their conclusions. Religions also differ on what happens after death but in reality it doesn’t really make any difference to us in this life, as what will be will be regardless.
The difference with Christianity from other religions is Jesus. The Christian claim is that God was actually somehow present in the heart and mind of Jesus. The Christian claim is that after death Jesus was resurrected in a new bodily form that is the prototype for humans in a renewed bodily existence at the end of time, whenever that happens.
However, even as Christians we find, (as is evidenced on this forum), a wide difference of belief about the attributes and desires of God. There is always present in all of us, varying degrees of selfishness and we do have a tendency to see God in our own image.
In the end it is a heart thing. Out of our hearts and minds we come to our own conclusions about God. I believe that God reaches out to all humanity with love and we are called to reflect that love into the world. I believe when we, both individually and collectively, allow God into our hearts it will make an immeasurable impact on this world and the next. In this way we do need God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 09-20-2012 7:28 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Straggler, posted 09-25-2012 9:18 AM GDR has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 33 of 224 (673709)
09-21-2012 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
09-21-2012 1:55 PM


When it's Friday, all I NEED is a Keith's
Phat writes:
The issue of control also comes up, and apologists often mention that one hallmark characteristic of many atheists/agnostics is the insistence upon having a freely chosen life free from the control of any deity or organized religious influence.
I don't insist on having a freely chosen life. I just don't see anyone or anything else being in control. Kind of like moving my arm. I've never felt God or any deity move my arm, just me. Same thing with control over my life. I've never felt God or any deity control my life, just me. This doesn't mean I'm insisting that I must be free to make my decisions... it's just that I don't think anything else is capable of doing anything as I'm the only one who's ever been "in my head" so to speak.
People like me, in contrast, seem to crave the need of an outer agent of control and feel lost would we have to live in a universe free from such control.
Very understandable.
And we're just two different people. See how different our feelings and needs are? How different do you think all the feelings and needs are for an entire country? How about 7 billion different people?
Maybe the only NEED is for there to be more than one answer...
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
I notice here that at the end you mention that even those who can't believe will still get a shot at acknowledging that God exists and everything could work out okay. With that in mind, do you still require that God cannot be your own superego or that He/SheIt has to be an actual Being apart from yourself?
Well.... I DO want God to exist, if thats what you mean. In fact, I believe that God exists apart from our imagination of such a Deity. To throw that away would be to throw away my inner hope for a rescuer more powerful than myself.
Actually, that's not what I meant. I was trying to point out that in one section you seemed to say "it's okay if you're an atheist, if God does exist then you'll be provided with that evidence when you die and you can decided then." But this sentiment seems to vanish for when someone else wants to make their own superego God... or not acknowledge a God or higher power in anyway. I don't think you should throw away any of your beliefs, I think they are extremely valid simply because they are important to you. I just want to suggest that other people's beliefs (or lack of beliefs) are equally valid simply because they are important to them.
Phat writes:
I suppose in all honesty I don't ever see myself(and by extension humanity) able to solve life's toughest issues.
Maybe.
I can see it working out, though. All we need to do is be okay with different people thinking differently.
It's not very hard, we all do it for most things already. Do you care if I spend my money on clothes or video games or stamps or my vehicle? I think we just need to mature to a point where we can extend this same courtesy to the freedom of thought. Why should anyone else care what I think about life, the universe and everything?
We already celebrate differences like choice of shoe colour or favourite football team (unless it's not the Dolphins, then you can just go to hell).
We are making progress in celebrating larger differences like sexual partners and what constitutes a "family."
One day we will extend this celebration of differences all the way into religious beliefs.
But I do hope you continue to believe, Phat. We certainly don't need any more of me around... what would I do then, if all my unique coolness is gone, I'll just be another everyday fuddy-duddy
So, do you still think WE need God?
Or do you think that maybe only PHAT needs God?
If you still think WE need God, do you have any specific example or situation you can describe that would show a difference that would require everyone involved to NEED God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 09-21-2012 1:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 09-22-2012 12:39 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 224 (673752)
09-22-2012 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Stile
09-21-2012 3:32 PM


Re: When it's Friday, all I NEED is a Keith's
Stile writes:
So, do you still think WE need God?
Or do you think that maybe only PHAT needs God?
If you still think WE need God, do you have any specific example or situation you can describe that would show a difference that would require everyone involved to NEED God?
The closest that I can come to is this:

9/11 attacks led Americans to church like never before
I will admit, however, that for all practical and logical purposes, it is only Phat that needs God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Stile, posted 09-21-2012 3:32 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Straggler, posted 09-25-2012 9:19 AM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 35 of 224 (673953)
09-25-2012 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by GDR
09-21-2012 3:24 PM


Re: Which God to Choose...
GDR writes:
In the end the point is whether a god, (or if you like an intelligence outside of our physical experience who is responsible for our existence), exists or not.
Whilst I am happy to talk about that it isn't the topic of this thread. In summary the conclusion that such a thing exists seems to be borne of the same human desire to invoke conscious intent at every turn that has failed so spectacularly so many times in the past. It is based on demonstrably erroneous thinking that comes naturally to us as a result of the social evolutionary environment in which our minds evolved.
The topic of this thread is "Do we NEED God" and (perhaps surprisingly - but hear me out) my answer is - Yes. Sort of.
Now when I say "Yes" it comes with some big qualifiers. I don't feel any personal need for god and nor do many many others. But humanity as a whole does seem to have this massive disposition to demand purpose in the form of conscious intent wherever it looks. And this leads almost inexorably to some sort of "god" being character.
Whether or not god exists it seems pretty definite that people need to invent such a thing. So in that sense I would say that yes, we (i.e. humanity) do need god even if I personally think we'd be better off discarding such notions.
God is here to stay in one form or another. Because humanity seems to need gods in one form or another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 09-21-2012 3:24 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by GDR, posted 09-26-2012 2:18 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 36 of 224 (673954)
09-25-2012 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
09-22-2012 12:39 AM


Re: When it's Friday, all I NEED is a Keith's
Perhaps we should distinguish between needing god and needing to believe in god......?
Is there a difference in your view?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 09-22-2012 12:39 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 9:38 AM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 224 (673956)
09-25-2012 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Straggler
09-25-2012 9:19 AM


Assuming God exists is the basis of my faith
Straggler writes:
Perhaps we should distinguish between needing god and needing to believe in god......?
Is there a difference in your view?
In my belief, God exists whether or not anyone believes in Him/Her/It.
Straggler writes:
Whether or not god exists it seems pretty definite that people need to invent such a thing.
belief 1 : confidence, trust 2 : something (as a tenet or creed) believed syn conviction, opinion, persuasion, sentiment
Thus I would argue that for me it is important to have confidence and trust that God is interactive and approachable. Otherwise what good is He?
Edited by Phat, : title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Straggler, posted 09-25-2012 9:19 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 9:47 AM Phat has replied
 Message 40 by Straggler, posted 09-25-2012 1:22 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 224 (673959)
09-25-2012 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
09-25-2012 9:38 AM


Re: Assuming God exists is the basis of my faith
Phat writes:
Thus I would argue that for me it is important to have confidence and trust that God is interactive and approachable. Otherwise what good is He?
Do you see what is reveled in that paragraph?
You define your god in terms of what benefit that god would provide to YOU.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 9:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 9:53 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 224 (673961)
09-25-2012 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
09-25-2012 9:47 AM


Re: Assuming God exists is the basis of my faith
jar writes:
Do you see what is reveled in that paragraph?
You define your god in terms of what benefit that god would provide to YOU.
Very true, but I would settle for simply having a relationship with Him/Her/It even if I was not favored in any measurable way apart from acceptance.
GOD, if GOD exists is, in my opinion, quite capable of having some sort of communication/communion with every living thing in the universe.In my more juvenile moments (of which there are many ) I whine like a spoiled child and want to get blessed with that candy bar in the checkout lane. Thankfully, IF God is involved in empathy towards my emotions at all, He usually ignores my pleading, as any good parent would do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 9:47 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 40 of 224 (673981)
09-25-2012 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
09-25-2012 9:38 AM


Re: Assuming God exists is the basis of my faith
We seem to have established that what you personally need is a belief in the existence of god.
Phat writes:
In my belief, God exists whether or not anyone believes in Him/Her/It.
Well obviously. But your need to believe in god tells us far more about you and your needs than it does whether such a thing really exists or not or even whether we need such a thing to exist or not.
The only need we have established in this thread is the need to believe that god exists whether or not he actually does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 9:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 2:21 PM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 224 (673993)
09-25-2012 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Straggler
09-25-2012 1:22 PM


Re: Assuming God exists is the basis of my faith
I want to point out one thing, Straggler. The very first line of my topic was this:
quote:
This topic is for those who assume/believe that God either exists or may exist.
You simply cannot frame the issue by saying
The only need we have established in this thread is the need to believe that god exists whether or not he actually does.
As the author of the thread, it is not simply my wishful belief but a prior assumption that God indeed does exist regardless of whether anyone believes in Him or not.
I don't like to separate believers and unbelievers, but I will not be bound by the a priori assumption that absence of evidence equates to evidence of absence.
Straggler writes:
your need to believe in god tells us far more about you and your needs than it does whether such a thing really exists or not or even whether we need such a thing to exist or not.
Yes, I cannot dispute this. Since the focus is on Phat, in your mind, allow me to ask you a question. If what I believe is true---that God exists regardless of any evidence for or against and regardless what your individual beliefs may be, how will you resolve your need for Him or not?
  • Since you cannot study Him, all you can do is study those who believe in Him. In order to understand them, allow yourself to think as they do. (temporarily, of course. )
  • If God exists, the first task for us is to establish what characteristics we think He/She/It may have. Jar has broken it down for us in declaring that GOD, if GOD exists is essentially unknowable. My belief differs from his in that I say that GOD, if GOD exists is knowable only to the extent that we allow communion.
    Does my frame make any sense?
    Edited by Phat, :

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by Straggler, posted 09-25-2012 1:22 PM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 52 by Straggler, posted 09-28-2012 10:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    1.61803
    Member (Idle past 1504 days)
    Posts: 2928
    From: Lone Star State USA
    Joined: 02-19-2004


    (1)
    Message 42 of 224 (674010)
    09-25-2012 6:33 PM


    One day brahma and shiva where crossing a bridge over a river.
    Shiva stepped up and in front of brahma said "I am the creator and destroyer! I can lay waste to all that lives. I am bringer of fire!!! I can burn the whole earth to a cinder!!!!
    Un impressed brahma takes a tiny straw and throws it down and says. "burn that then".
    Edited by 1.61803, : typos

    "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 43 of 224 (674038)
    09-26-2012 2:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Straggler
    09-25-2012 9:18 AM


    Re: Which God to Choose...
    GDR writes:
    In the end the point is whether a god, (or if you like an intelligence outside of our physical experience who is responsible for our existence), exists or not.
    Straggler writes:
    Whilst I am happy to talk about that it isn't the topic of this thread.
    It may not be the topic but it is certainly relevant to the topic. If there is no god(s) then we certainly don't need one. Whether we need the idea of a god to keep people in line is an interesting thought but with you as an example it is obvious that a god isn't necessary.
    On the other hand if a creative intelligence which we can call God does exist then presumably he is responsible for our existence which kinda makes him necessary. After that the discussion has to centred around the theistic vs the deistic positions.
    Straggler writes:
    In summary the conclusion that such a thing exists seems to be borne of the same human desire to invoke conscious intent at every turn that has failed so spectacularly so many times in the past. It is based on demonstrably erroneous thinking that comes naturally to us as a result of the social evolutionary environment in which our minds evolved.
    First off, it seems to me that the fact that mankind has always had a sense of something beyond ourselves is indicative that such a something likely exists.
    Straggler writes:
    Whether or not god exists it seems pretty definite that people need to invent such a thing. So in that sense I would say that yes, we (i.e. humanity) do need god even if I personally think we'd be better off discarding such notions.
    God is here to stay in one form or another. Because humanity seems to need gods in one form or another.
    If there is no creative intelligence that is responsible for our existence and we are just the result of a chance combination of particles then it is clear that we have come a long way all on our own. I agree that people do want to find ultimate meaning and purpose but why on earth would we have evolved in such a way as to have that desire implanted in our hearts and minds. It just seems so highly improbable that it become implausible if we are not the result of a pre-existing intelligence.
    All of us, atheist and theist alike have a dream of leaving their mark on this world that endures past death. It might be kids, a beautiful painting or piece of music, a scientific breakthrough, a medical cure or even improving the lot of the less fortunate. I know that you will disagree but if we are the result of just a mindless collection of particles then the fact that we feel that way makes very little sense to me.
    It could then be argued from a deistic POV that once the plan was in place and creation set in motion, it was then just left to run the course on its own. IMHO that doesn't make much sense either because, amongst other reasons, we do continue to look for purpose and meaning in our lives beyond just existing for the time we have here. Once again it seems improbable to me that we would have that desire as part of our consciousness if there isn't a foundation for it. If what I suggest is correct and there is an ultimate purpose, then it becomes highly probable that we do need God even if our search for understanding of his nature and desires for our lives, doesn’t lead us to as clear an answer as we flawed humans would like.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
    Micah 6:8

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Straggler, posted 09-25-2012 9:18 AM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by Stile, posted 09-26-2012 8:24 AM GDR has replied
     Message 47 by ringo, posted 09-26-2012 12:15 PM GDR has replied
     Message 53 by Straggler, posted 09-28-2012 12:12 PM GDR has replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 44 of 224 (674048)
    09-26-2012 8:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 43 by GDR
    09-26-2012 2:18 AM


    Making Sense
    GDR writes:
    All of us, atheist and theist alike have a dream of leaving their mark on this world that endures past death. It might be kids, a beautiful painting or piece of music, a scientific breakthrough, a medical cure or even improving the lot of the less fortunate. I know that you will disagree but if we are the result of just a mindless collection of particles then the fact that we feel that way makes very little sense to me.
    Really?
    I mean, I don't think we actually get purpose or motivation from evolution. Evolution is just an explanation, it's not really a thing that has a "purpose." But if we want to stretch the definition of the word, I would say that evolution's "purpose" is to survive. Live long enough to reproduce. Something along those lines.
    So, let's say that is true, that evolution's purpose is to get things to survive.
    Taking that into account, you find it improbable that we could possibly evolve a mind that thinks about enduring past death?
    If the whole point of our lives is to live, you find it strange that we think about living... longer? That doesn't make much sense to me.
    But, like I said, I don't really think evolution has a "purpose" anyway, so I don't really have much of a point.
    Just wanted to say something. Maybe my fingers wanted the excercise of typing... :]
    Edited by Stile, : This post contains 87 bazillion more wubwub. Vive le robolution!!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by GDR, posted 09-26-2012 2:18 AM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by GDR, posted 09-26-2012 11:12 AM Stile has replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 45 of 224 (674072)
    09-26-2012 11:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 44 by Stile
    09-26-2012 8:24 AM


    Re: Making Sense
    Stile writes:
    I mean, I don't think we actually get purpose or motivation from evolution. Evolution is just an explanation, it's not really a thing that has a "purpose." But if we want to stretch the definition of the word, I would say that evolution's "purpose" is to survive. Live long enough to reproduce. Something along those lines.
    That was kinda my point. Certainly evolution has given us the instinct to survive, but like you say, I can't see it giving a purpose in terms of a legacy of that entails leaving the world a better place after we're gone. (I can see it from a genetic POV that we would want to see our genes carry on.)
    Stile writes:
    So, let's say that is true, that evolution's purpose is to get things to survive.
    Taking that into account, you find it improbable that we could possibly evolve a mind that thinks about enduring past death?
    If the whole point of our lives is to live, you find it strange that we think about living... longer? That doesn't make much sense to me.
    My point wasn't about living past death. If evolution has given us a survival instinct then it would make sense that we would think about enduring past death. My point was that we have a desire to leave our mark on this world in a way that has nothing to do with life after death. Atheists, like anyone else are desirous of being remembered for what they have accomplished after they are gone.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
    Micah 6:8

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by Stile, posted 09-26-2012 8:24 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 46 by Stile, posted 09-26-2012 11:34 AM GDR has replied

      
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